I realise you are trying to be fair to the 2 players by listing the above accomplishments BUT and it is a very very big but if Jason Kidd had played in Magic’s era he would not have “been selected to First Team all-NBA five times, second team once” He would be looking at a whole bunch of second or third team selections. Kidd has 83 % as many assists as Stockton and a PG’s job is to distribute. Kidd had 80% as many steals as the slow white guy.

I love Kidd, second best PG of this generation and the best rebounding PG of all time…. but referring to triple dooubles is kinda like commenting on woman’s looks by saying …she s got a nice personality. A PG’s job is to run the offense. Stockton did that superbly for his team.

JKidd is the ONE.

Stockton was great. Equating a player’s propensity to achieve triple-double’s to a woman having a “nice personality” says a lot about the poster’s (a) bias towards Stockton, (b) lack of appreciation for a PG’s all-around game and (c) taste in women.

He’s basically saying that getting triple-doubles is secondary to running an offense like a woman’s “nice personality” is secondary to…um…good looks? or maybe reproductive fertility?

Stockton was a specialist. He did what he did well. Ran the offense to perfection. But only made the Finals once playing the second fiddle to Malone.

JKidd is a great team leader. He’s made the players around him better, year in and year out. He also made the Finals twice being the main man on a lesser team.

Stockton was a great assist man and teammate but JKidd is the general. The better player and stronger leader.

does no one notice that Jason Kidd can’t shoot worth **** yet john stockton can?
Forget that put in that all important FG% huh?

When a play breaks down, the pg is going to need to shoot it. I’d rather have it in stockton’s hand than kidd’s

take a look at stockton’s true shooting percentage -absolutely sick! These guys played different games, but they were both awesome two way players. Anybody on this board that thinks either of these two are the greatest ever is out of their minds. One might make #4 all time.

Charles, I understand you’re trying to just compare two guys, but your support at the bottom isn’t really very good. Your reasoning is to take away from Stockton because he played with Malone, yet you say Magic was probably the best, when he played with entire team full of stars. For consistencies stake, that would imply Kidd does more too than Magic did. Also, if Stockton racked up so many assists because his finisher was so good, Kidd also boards great because his big men are so bad at rebounding.

The shooting is a tremendous hole in Kidd’s game, and it’s one thing that you don’t become a great rebounder at 6′1 and lack of hops, but at 34 you still don’t have a good jumper when that was the only weakness you had since your rookie year!? A rebounding machine Kidd is, but Stockton was a great pure shooter too. They really do excel at different areas, and it’s hard to say one is better, but you MUST include shooting if you’re going to talk about triple doubles.

2 last thoughts. 1) Tim Duncan is the best PF of all time. 2) Complete and utter excellence and dominance is when everyone knows exactly what you’ll do, but nobody can stop it. The fact that the pick and roll was run to the most perfect motion has to be commended because every single team, player, and coach knew exactly what was going to be run, but were helpless to do anything about it.

Notably absent from the list is shooting percentage (which matters a lot more then triple doubles, which is kind of a b.s. stat).

So the critical question, it seems to me, is whether Kidd’s superior rebounding and defense make up for his inferior offensive game.

i think they’re both great PGs as they are able to do what is required of them, and that is to run the play. i also think that despite Kidd’s lacking a more consistent go-to-guy, he was able to create opportunities for his team on offense largely in part to the wingmen’s athleticism. Stockton was great because he mastered, no, perfected the pick and roll. and if that’s what he has to do to secure the win, then that’s what matters. If Kidd has to do all the rebounding to make sure there are enough opportunities to score or create plays, and to contribute, then by all means he should. this is just comparison of their stats, but that it should end at that coz these two PGs have different games, different teammates, play at different times, and have different approaches but that they were able to contribute to their team, and dominate the field during their prime. to say that Kidd is a poor shooter doesn’t really translate to being a poor PG, as there had been times the offensive load sat squarely on his back, but that he was able to carry the team as it’s leader and at the same time still run the play.

all in all, the TDs of Kidd is just an indicator of how hard he plays, and how much he’s willing to contribute.

Stockton in a heartbeat.

The best PG bar none.

Facilitate offense, that’s what a point guard is for me, and that’s what Stockton did superbly.

Also, his personality is one of a kind. Very classy fellow, unlike the whinny players of today’s age.

Fair point to Slam Online reader. A few points of clarification. Magic did not play with an “entire team full of stars.” James Worthy was the only real all-star from those years, and Kareem by that point was well on the decline with a serviceable sky hook but not a whole lot else. The rest of the Showtime crew was stocked with quality role players. The best starters of the Stockton-Malone era Jazz imho were about on par with the Showtime starters. The difference was Magic and the Lakers’ ridiculously deep bench.

Magic made it all work at optimum levels, raising everyone’s game all while not being the primary option for scoring (he was the quinticential pass-first point who at one time had be harrassed by Riley into taking more shots). Stockton on the other hand ran that pick and roll all night and it was the Jazz’ primary (and secondary) scoring tactic. It worked so well not because Stockton was some “genius” at passing the rock to Malone (hello? have you played basketball? the PnR is one of the easiest concepts to master), but because Malone was well-nigh unstoppable. Again, unlike Kidd, Stockton played for years with an all-star workhorse who hardly ever missed a game.

I think we’re all agreed that if JKidd was a better shooter this comparison is a no-brainer not worth arguing about. However, since JKidd is the lesser in an admittedly important area, there’s some room for debate. That said, I still give the clear edge to Kidd because he can do more, overall, if you include intangibles like playmaking ability and making the other guys better.

“Yes, Stockton probably got more than half his assists on P&R with Malone, but Kidd probably got half of his assists on Alley-oops to guys like Martin, Jefferson and Carter. So those go-to plays are roughly the same.”

That’s nuts.

“Very classy fellow, unlike the whinny players of today’s age.”

Selective memory “mj.” Stockton in his day was as reviled as a dirty player as much as Bruce Bowen is now. Is he “classy” cuz he’s never been arrested? Big deal. Lotsa players never get arrested.

p.s. MVP just means you’re considered the most important player on one of the top teams in the league. It’s notable but these awards don’t necessarily mean a whole lot all by themselves, it’s part of the total picture. Nash will nevernevernevernever ever make an All-Defensive squad of any kind.

p.p.s. Tim Duncan has been my favourite player since his senior year in college. I do believe he is the GOAT PF, but his greatest competition for that title is none other than Karl Malone (and it’s not like it’d be a cakewalk comparo either).
Does anyone know for sure if these All-Whatever teams are voted on by coaches/players or by fans. AFAIK, it’s NBA coaches. I think they’re less susceptible to falling into the name-recognition trap that waylays most fans. They know the deal, they see these players up close and have to plan against them over the course of a season.

Okay, let me make this easier for you guys. You can attribute a large number of Stockton’s assists to Malone, yes. But that does not mean that he didnt help make Malone one of the top two PF’s of all time. Stockton got him the ball, and did it to perfection. To say that we can all run the P+R and comparing it to pickup games is completely asinine. I did watch the Jazz religously growing up and am biased toward Stockton, but if the other team knows its coming and still cant stop it that means they were better than everybody else. They continuously were among the best teams in the league, and made it to the Finals twice, by the way. Stockton’s ability to take over the game and score when it matters most is a huger difference between the two. Not just his ability to shoot the Jumper, but he would drive and score and pick-up fouls much like Nash does now. He only did it when they really needed it though. He hit an ubelievable amount of big shots to win games.

Dont give me that Kidd was a better defender crap. Stockton is the alltime steals leader too. I will backup a comment somebody made about stockton being one of the most reviled players in the league during his time. He was, because he played as hard as possible, setting hard picks- fighting through picks, diving for loose balls, making the steals, and playing good solid defense. Did he get lit up by GP a few times, sure. A few. If he played today I would pit him against any PG in the league and they would fear the matchup. They would get owned by Stockton.

His team was much much better because of him. I cant say anything about Stockton leading the Nets, or any other team to the finals. He did lead the Jazz to the finals twice. He made Greg Ostertag, Antoine Carr(?), David Benoit, and Jeff Hornacek all really good players. And just like everybodies argument that Malone made Stockton, Stockton helped make Malone. Stockton also rarely missed games, I believe he was out about two months when he had a procedure that is now known as microfracture surgery- thats pretty tough.

Comparing him to Magic, who played center and other positions, is unfair. Comparing him to J-Kidd is reasonable- but you cant tell me that J-Kidd is better. J-Kidd is unbelievably good, very talented and a hard worker who does make his team better. I am always impressed when I see him play and he deserves all the recognition he gets. But he gets a lot of it, and Stockton is forgotten. I wont forget you Stockton. J-Kidd, the best rebounding PG ever. Stockton- best PG ever. Stockton wins- hands down!!!

Why is it that everyone is criticizing Stockton for running the pick & roll to perfection? If it’s so easy to rack up assists and points with guaranteed finishers like Malone, why hasn’t it been the go-to play for every NBA team with a finisher? Seems to me that it would be more difficult to consistently execute the same offensive strategy when every defense knows it’s coming, every time. Running the pick & roll requires precision and decision-making, and Stockton had both. Note that Stockton’s career assist-to-turnover ratio was over 3.7, versus under 2.9 for Kidd. He didn’t make mistakes. And anyone in Utah will tell you that Malone would never have come close to Michael’s and Wilt’s career scoring numbers without Stockton. For a long time Malone couldn’t get his own shot, he had to get the ball in the right spot to score. He developed a bit of a fadeaway jumper in the mid-90s, but that was pretty far into his career.

Also, Sloan was responsible for the pick & roll, so don’t take anything away from Stockton for running it. It’s easy to forget because it wasn’t a focus of the offense, but Stockton could run the break pretty well too. He wasn’t flashy, and placed the pass for a layup rather than an alley-oop, but he could play outside his element. He also had his share of no-look passes, and could thread the needle as well as any player in history.

Stockton was also more of an athlete than he’s getting credit for here. The guy was 6-1, 175 lbs, and played 19 seasons in the league. He was once measured with 2.3 percent body fat. He didn’t dunk the ball, but he didn’t tear up his ankles either. He had over 3200 steals, for crying out loud, he wasn’t slow. Gary Payton, who was insanely quick at the height of his “glove” days, used to talk more trash than anybody. A reporter was asking Stockton about it one time, though, and Stockton just said “he never talks to me.”

Jason Kidd has not led the league in Triple Doubles 10 consecutive times. KG led the league with 6 in his MVP year.

The jazz never missed the playoffs with John Stockton. They reached the western finals 5 times in 7 years. Anybody else want to make the point that he isnt a team leader. Has Kidd ever missed the playoffs?

Okay, Im done arguing over this. Im not saying Kidd was/is a bad defender. But you proved the point yourself, Charles Follymacher, with the Stat- Stockon:2.2 Steals/gm; Kidd: 1.9/gm- true, Kidd is no slouch. But my point is that it isnt Stockton’s record just due to playing for so long, and for rarely missing a game. Its because he was good. I dont care if he never got selected to the 1st NBA Defensive team or not. By the way, the stat at the top is wrong. Stockton was all Defensive Second team 4 times at this point. 5 Times total. As for your other point

“Man, it doesn’t take any special talent for an average NBA guard to feed space eating Karl Malone the ball in a half-court set. Honestly.”

Stockton, contrary to popular belief, did more than just feed Karl Malone. In fact, he didnt only use a pick and roll to be able to pass. Heck, he even threw some alley-oops. Maybe only once or twice though. Im serious, I feel like Im arguing with a bunch of 4th graders here. Stockton is in the top 3 on the Point Guard of all time list, at worst. No questions asked. I know Magic is #1 and he is a PG. Seriously, I know. But, he did line up at other positions, starting as a center for one Game 7 as I recall. Him being 6′9″ makes it a lot more Apples and Orange of a debate. Yet, Magic is everywhere-still. My point was that Stockton gets completely disrespected.

He broke Magics all time Assist record.
He Tied the playoff record for most assists in a game.
Most assists in a season.
He has the All time lead in Steals.
He has the Highest assists/gm in a season.
He led the league for 9 straight seasons, a record too.

Do i even need to go on??? J-Kidd may be able to enter the discussions someday. For right now, you can compare him to Nash, or GP, or whoever else you want to. You can compare his rebounding stats to somebody that isnt 6′1. But you cant compare stats to John Stockton.

Random side note here…. something that will forever bother me about the achievements in Jason Kidd’s career. If Nash won the MVP two years in a row for how he made the Suns a sudden “contender”, how did Jason Kidd not win it for what he did when he came to the Nets? I have been a Nets fan for about 12 years now. Does anyone remember how different they became? If the sign of a great point guard is one that makes his entire team better, how about a point guard that makes an entire franchise better and essentially changes the expectations of its entire fan base? Even in a fairly bad year, the Nets make the playoffs now.

Did anyone wath the FIBA Tournament of the Americas? Jason Kidd turns every team he’s on into a ball-sharing machine. His focus and mentality are so infectious that he seems to really make players around him play up to (and above in many cases) their seeming potential.

Admittedly, I am on the J-Kidd side of this debate, but just too be fair, I’ll play devil’s advocate and help the Stockton supporters out here:

As you can see, I’m not even talking about statistics, since it is fairly a wash in that department given Kidd’s insane rebounding and Stockton’s ridiculous and somehow still underated “J”. Stockton was never traded. Jason Kidd is on his third team and was almost traded to the Spurs a couple seasons back and all but had a Lakers jersey on earlier this year. If you want to talk about the greatest players of all time at any position, for the most part even in their decline, their teams did not truly consider trading them…. although some went to other teams on their own terms. Coaches and GM’s don’t let “GOAT” players leave, because there is always value to keeping them around.

And, for the Nash fans out there, here’s something in your defense:

If you look at career stats, Nash is not in the same league, however, it makes it all that more impressive that a player can continuously elevate his level of play over the course of his career to the point that for even one or two seasons, he is one of the greatest.

Take any two of the best years of any of these guy’s careers, and compare stat lines…I think you’ll find that this devate will never stop, which leads me to concluded that we have been privy to one of the best point guard era’s of all time! Enjoy it for what it’s worth…

p.s. the Suns actually had Kidd, Nash, and Kevin Johnson on the same team at one time…. I would have paid top dollar to watch an scrimmage at one practice

Not to get too far off topic here, Drew, but since you mentioned it (although somewhat jokingly) has anyone reading this blog ever actually seen the stats on True Rebounding Efficiency (it may have been called something else, but close enough). When they account for the number of rebounds available to actually get while you were on the floor along with minutes played, the Rodman numbers are mind boggling. I haven’t been able to find that article from a couple years back ever again, but it was shocking and I already thought he should have been an all-start several times over. Basically, he played on some good teams that didn’t miss too many shots, especially during the Bulls campaign, but when they did, if he was on the court, you were safe to bet your money on Rodman grabbing the board.

Seeing how badly the Nets could use a defensive minded double digit rebounding big man, it might be time to start a “sign Rodman to the Nets” blog…(joking…sort of)

Tip o’ the hat @ Drew. All that rebounding stuff when straight over my head tho (”huh? what?!”). Sorry if something I said implied more diss than intended. I’ll admit I didn’t really like Stockton much personally, but he has to be respected.

I think they are both great guards. When it comes to running the offense I would be estatic with either one. My question is how is their shooting percentage for all categories. My guess John a better shooter while Jason is a better rebounder. With regard to the Olympics, Team US desparately needs Jason in order to win the gold. In summary, they are are both true point guards that I would pay to watch. To watch them is like listening to great music or watching a movie that has a great script and great actors.

Magic= All time Great.