Pundit Look at Nets Cap Omits a Bit
by Net Income on Sep 17, 2011 7:43 PM EDT
in 2011 NBA Draft
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Every year, NBADraft.net produces a "State of the Cap" report on each of the NBA's 30 teams and Friday, it was the Nets' turn. It's generally accurate, other than an occasional error (Travis Outlaw has four years left on his contract, not three).
One big complaint with NBADraft.net's analysis is its failure to fully appreciate the team's advantages, starting with the value of the Barclays Center to the franchise. A move to the "World's Most Expensive Arena" (in the heart of America's biggest market) should help the Nets finally dump their reputation as second rate. Moreover, the writer suggests that there is less than a 5% chance Deron Williams will fail to exercise his player option in 2012-13 (consider that he can make an easy $18 million that year in a post-CBA world.)
But the biggest omission is that the writer doesn't note that of all the teams with low payrolls (Nets, Nuggets, Kings and Pacers), only one has a superstar as well and if you tend to believe him, they will for a while.
- State of the Cap: New Jersey Nets - Seth Sommerfeld - NBADraft.net
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I cannot tell you how sick I am of hearing this:
….essentially giving up almost every attractive commodity they had outside of Brook Lopez.
I think it's fine.
its not true????
My lil man.....can't tell me god don't exist.
by killa kadafi191 on Sep 17, 2011 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
What is attractive about a PG that has already peaked
What’s so amazing about a Euro in the weakest draft in ages. What is so amazing about a top three pick who averaged 7 pts and 5 rbs. Sure, they have potential. I am just tired people acting like we gave up a king’s ransom for top 3 pg.
I think it's fine.
by NetsMets4Life on Sep 17, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me put it this way
I can understand someone saying that besides Brook and Deron, there isn’t much appealing about the Nets basketball wise. But what I do not understand is how someone can think we would’ve been fine without trading for Deron, that Harris and Favors were the only things going for us. People act like giving them up was like giving up a king’s ransom. I do not understand this.
I think it's fine.
by NetsMets4Life on Sep 17, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's put it this way
That’s a package 2 different teams (Utah and Denver) were willing to give up their star players for. And I’m sure they wouldn’t be the only ones. I wasn’t even a Favors fan, but that’s his value.
Don’t get my wrong, we needed to make that trade and I’m confident Deron will stay but that sentence is 100% true. This is not like the JKidd trade. We traded Marbury for Kidd straight up (I think we threw in garabge like Jonnhy Newman and Smake). If we had traded Devin and a couple of secondary pieces for Deron then it’d be like the Kidd trade, but Favors and the unprotected pick had tons of value.
Denver was fine with Harris, Favors and picks? Didn't they want much more?
If Deron leaves, I will be upset with his decision to do so. I will not be upset with King for actually making the trade with one exception: if Favors turns into Utah’s best forward since Malone. I know he has plenty of time, but I have some trouble seeing that in his future. I guess only time will tell.
I think it's fine.
by NetsMets4Life on Sep 17, 2011 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
like I said I'm not a Favors fan, never was
but his value was that high.
And like I said numerous times, if Deron leaves (which I don’t think will happen), I won’t be mad at the Nets FO for making the trade (again, I think we had to make the trade), I will be mad at them for not making the moves needed to convince the guy to stay (Deron himself has said it’s doable). Anyway if Deron leaves the trade will be considered a complete disaster and deservedly so, imo. But again I’m optimistic he will stay.
Anyway my point is the sentence you quoted is entirely true imo. We gave up every single valuable asset we had except for Brook. Even if Deron stays (which would make this trade a home run) that sentence would still be true. It will be something negative only if Deron leaves, but regardless of what he does it is just true that the Nets gave up almost every attractive commodity they had outside of Brook Lopez.
This is true...
You are right, the sentence I quoted is technically true…I just see that remark and it makes me feel like people actually think that we gave up a king’s ransom for Deron (king’s ransom has been used to describe it before) and I simply do not agree with that. My gut feeling is that in the end it will be a fantastic trade on our end, and even if it does not work out the way we hope, it was still a necessary trade and I will not regret it.
I think it's fine.
by NetsMets4Life on Sep 17, 2011 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
not true
Nets gave up one of their own picks…that’s it. They could have given up the two first rounders they had from LA and Houston OR future Nets picks. The Knicks gave up one first round pick, agreed to swap first round picks in another draft plus two second round picks to get Melo.
They also didn’t give up much cap space.
The Nets also did not give up Anthony Morrow, who the Nuggets wanted at one point. The player with the second highest three point shooting percentage is quite valuable, considering that is 25 and with a reasonable contract.
As for the Kidd deal, let’s try to remember that the Nets gave up a 24 year old All-Star (who was and is crazy) who was under contract for three more years and who to this day has the Nets highest one season PER rating in return for a 28 year old who had just pleaded guilty to domestic abuse and who had two years left. It wasn’t as much a no-brainer as history showed it to be.
The LA pick and the HOU pick had little value if any at all
value wise those picks and Morrow were nowhere near the other assets they gave up. They were insignifcant assets compared to the assets they surrendered.
Even if you want to believe he is the next Kobe
that pick had little trade value.
Again, the Lakers gave away that pick to get rid of Sasha, and a couple if years ago they traded a pick like that for money. That’s all the vaule that pick has.
Whether the pick will turn into a significant asset or bring any valul to this franchise some day remains to be seen.
When speaking about trade value you can’t seriously mention that pick or th HOU one in the same sentence as Favors, our pick this year or even the GS pick.
And yeah the 2012 draft looks good, but that pick is lottery protected. Do you think the Rockets will make the playoffs? And even if they do (wishful thinking) It’ll be nothing but a mid first at best. That pick is not even guaranteed to be a 1st at the end of the day.
I agree on the cap space part tho
that’s one thing I really liked. We kept that financial flexibility to keep improving the team, something that would have not happened if we had made some of those Melo trade proposals.
The Nets didnt have to take on a dime in the D-Will deal
beyond D-Will’s contract.
I think Kevin O’Connor will wind up looking like a fool when this is said and done. He could have Valanciunas. He also could have had either of the two picks, if not both, that the Nets were willing to give Denver (I’m not speculating) but said he had enough picks.
And he could have asked to expand the deal because he has some bad contracts.
.
What bad contracts?
Other than Bell’s (who isn’t that big or long), I can’t think of any contracts they could have looked to dump on the Nets.
Bell's is one
and they COULD have pushed to dump Jefferson’s deal. WOuld have been hard, probably needing a third team, but that’s what Denver demanded. Utah could have done the same thing.
This was the final deal
In the proposed deal, the Nets would have sent Derrick Favors, Devin Harris, Troy Murphy, Ben Uzoh and four first round picks to Denver for Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Renaldo Balkman, Melvin Ely and Shelden Williams. The four picks being offered are the Nets’ 2011 pick; the Lakers’ 2011 pick; the Warriors’ 2012 pick; and the Rockets’ 2012 pick.
This was the final Knick deal
Denver got Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Timofey Mozgov, the Knicks 2014 first-round draft pick, the right to swap first rounders in 2016; the Warriors’ 2012 second-round pick, the Warriors’ 2013 second-round pick, and $3 million in cash, all from the Knicks and Kosta Koufos from the Timberwolves
New York received Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Shelden Williams, Anthony Carter and Renaldo Balkman from Denver and Corey Brewer from the Timberwolves…who they then released.
Minnesota got Anthony Randolph, Eddy Curry , who they then released, and $3 million in cash from New York and the Nuggets’ 2015 second round pick.
exactly
My lil man.....can't tell me god don't exist.
by killa kadafi191 on Sep 17, 2011 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
no it isn't
Nets had a LOT more draft picks they could have given up.
Knicks were severely limited in what they could give up for Melo. Nets were not.
And PICKS are often the currency when a big player is traded.
good for utah
And good for us too
The only piece I miss is favors. Harris was trash, the pick was supposed to be #8 I think, but outside of Irving or d.Williams there was nothing special about the draft, and the Gs pick is protected and I for one think they are a team on the rise.
by Jack Handy Jr on Sep 17, 2011 8:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How's Devin garbage?
I always thought he was pretty underrated here. I understand his value was pretty low tho (the Nets devalued him… he was playing well this season but everyone knew he was gone and that’s why other teams were lowballing us).
I am a Kanter fan and think he has a legitimate chance at being the best player out of this year’s draft class. He has some big question marks tho.
Even if we had ended up with a pick in the 5-8 territory we could have ended with a nice building block like say Valanciunas, Knight, etc.
Again I would have made the trade 10 times out of 10 but let’s not act as if we gave up nothing. It was a heck of a package.
to quote a Nets insider...
“why are your fans so enamored of a guy who gave up on his team two straight years.”
I liked him too, and could never figure out why he went from where he was in 2008-09 to where he was when he left…and where he was at Utah. His game didn’t change when freed of Avery and Kiki.
I can't understand how anyone can believe
Devin was the same in 2009-10 and in 2011-12.
This past year Devin became one of the few Nets in franchise history to have back-2-back 14+ assist performances. Kidd isn’t even one of them. Devin was averaging a career high in apg. Despite the trade rumors he was playing well, IMO. Avery backstabbed him after the guy helped him get hired here.
He showed up out of shape
said Billy King at the season’s end.
I dont think he was playing his heart out.
Kanter is not as good as Valanciunas
taken two picks later, as proven in Eurobasket.
Kanter is going to be a bust.
Andres and others bookmarking this comment...haha
I think it's fine.
by NetsMets4Life on Sep 17, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Very bold statement
I think he can be a very good center prospect in the league.
by JerseysFinest. on Sep 17, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not alone
Sebastian Pruiti of NBA Playbook in the nicest way possible said that while it was too early to use the B word, it did come to mind.
I dont think he will be worthy of a #3 pick and I dont get the logic of picking Kanter over Valanciiunas because Kanter will be able to play this year and Valanciunas can’t. If there is no season, they both are rookies in 2012 and Valanciunas will have played a year in the Euroleague while Kanter will have gone two seasons without playing.
How was it proven in Eurobasket that Valanciunas is better than Kanter?
Their numbers were pretty similar.
I mean, you can make a case for Valanciunas being the better prospect, but their performances in Eurobasket isn’t a reason you should use. Kanter was solid, even impressive sometimes. I think he’s gonna be a stud.
I watched games
and Kanter looked good. He faced NBA bigs like Kaman and Krstic and he was good.
Funny how you are bothered by me saying Brooks is a bum but you’re ready to say Kanter is a bust. I wonder what you’d say if the Nets had drafted Kanter.
Look, I understand there’s a lot of quesiton marks about Kanter, I know it. But you clearly have an agenda here.
Harris only played well when he was pissed at something or someone....
His game lacked consistent emotion………winning attitude , etc…..
wipe out deron and lopez
what can you expect to get in return for whats left?
farmar: average salary even more average as a backup point
morrow: lights out shooter, but thats all he brings, liability in most other areas of the game, and injury-prone
james: unproven due to his injuries
petro: about as valuable as desagna diop
outlaw: i dont even think the hawks would trade marvin williams straight up for him
everyone else either is not under contract or would be filler and likely released ASAP after a trade. unless the other team is so desperate to rid themselves of a “good” player then the best they could get back is likely fringe starters
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
R.I.P. Big Homey Nate Dogg: "Cuz Iiiiiiiiii have ne-evv-ver met a giiiiiiiiiirrrrrrllllllllllllllllllll tha-at I loved in the whole wide wooorrrlllllddddddd"
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Sep 17, 2011 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
one pick basically?
anything after 2012 is irrelevant. normally when a team acquires a superstar their team improves rather rapidly.
this isnt pechorov, songalia, thomas, and what would become rubio for mike miller and randy foye. if the nets arent in same status as the hawks and blazers now by 2013 then something went terribly wrong. deron williams should never be on a lottery team for a full season
The realist keepin it real amongst the surrealists
R.I.P. Big Homey Nate Dogg: "Cuz Iiiiiiiiii have ne-evv-ver met a giiiiiiiiiirrrrrrllllllllllllllllllll tha-at I loved in the whole wide wooorrrlllllddddddd"
by starbury_to_s-jaxci2000 on Sep 18, 2011 4:25 AM EDT up reply actions
what picks?
the LA & HOU ones?
The LA pick had so much value the Lakers gave it away to get rid of Machine. It is so valuable that in the past they have traded a pick like that for straight cash.
The HOU pick isn’t even guaranteed to be a 1st rounder.
And if we are to become a good team, our own picks won’t hold that much value either, but it’s a good thing to have kept our own picks, it gives us flexibility, and just in case things turn bad we’ll have the resources to add young… but in terms of trade value you can’t pretend they are great asset, again if you expect this team to become good enough for Deron to stay.
again, MarShon Brooks who you hate
was available. So were two players you liked.
The Houston pick is in what could be the best draft in history. Houston could easily make the playoffs. They almost did last year and if they do, the Nets would have two picks. The Nets are one of THREE teams that has two first round picks in the 2012 Draft. You can trade them to get a higher pick or if you want additional cap space you can send them and a bad contract elsewhere.
The Nets could have sent another of their OWN first rounders in the deal. They didnt.
It is ridiculous to suggest the Nets didn’t have the additional assets.
Hard cap
If the hard cap is adopted this is to our advantage, they will have to institute the amnesty so teams can adjust.
Seems like majority of owners want the hard cap. Sterns words not mine.
Nets are in good position either way.
short term yes, long term no
We know have the richest owner in sports, a soft cap where we could have had a $90m payroll like lal, Dallas, etc. Would have helped us.
by Jack Handy Jr on Sep 17, 2011 8:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I can't see a hard cap happening
Players seem determined to refuse to accept it and OTOH owners say it’s negotiable.
something resembling a hard cap will be part of the final deal
players will claim it’s not hard, owners will say its a step in the right direction.
But be warned, there is likely to a ban on sign-and-trades…as a sop to the smaller market owners.
I'm say this
it’s funny now Devin is garbage now.
When I was saying in 2009 dude reminds me Marbury people said I was crazy now that he is gone he is garbage and gave up on his team.
Before it was every excuse in the book why this injury prone player did not do well following the 2009 season and how his style was similar among PGs.
Yet now he is garbage because he is out. How many people said Avery would return Devin back to player he was??
One thing was sure Avery made sure his that Devin was once again replaced by an all star PG that is light years above him.
As for Favors. How many times did we hear KG and all those other comparisons. How about this anytime someone said that Cousins will be and is the better player people went crazy.
Now Favors is gone people all of sudden see what others said and question his fire???
Now true the Nets did give up as much as the Knicks that because who they did business with. Lets not act like they were not ready to take the Knicks place in being gutted and have a team full of old players (RIP Billups)
That being said the players the nets gave up what the only ones that had value.
Well as much as they could get. Devin Harris value was so low at the time people knew the Nets had to trade him at the deadline.
As for Favors he had one thing going for him. Potential. Hopefully he can turn into a big time player.
with those two gone again outside of Lopez who else do the Nets have that they can get any quality players???
Morrow? Outlaw? Petro? Farmer??
So again I see the point of the phrase.
My lil man.....can't tell me god don't exist.
by killa kadafi191 on Sep 18, 2011 1:57 AM EDT reply actions
Our only trade asset
is our cap space.
Our “young role players” ain’t getting us squat via trade. The only way we get something valauble via trade is if there’s a team that wants to unload a good player on a heavy contract, so we can use our cap space to give them tremendous salary cap relief.
Of course if a star player becomes available we have Brook as a great trade chip.
Yeah, you are right
Morrow, Mini Kobe, Trav the great, and Frenchi could net us an All Star, right????
now what is ridiculous, as I have stated mutliple times in this thread
is that the Nets picks are not valuable.
AGAIN>>>>
—The Nets have everyone of their first round picks left, from now through eternity.
How many other teams can say that? They were able to get what they wanted by trading second round picks, for Brandan Wright, for MarShon Brooks, for Bojan Bogdanovic. They even have a second rounder in 2012, if they don’t have their own.
—The Nets have TWO first round picks in the 2012 Draft which may very well be the best draft in years because so many underclassman stayed in school and because the incoming freshman class has bonafide NBA players. Only two other teams have two first round picks, giving the Nets plenty of flexibility that other teams do not have. To suggest that has not value shows a lack of understanding of how the NBA works.
—Players like Farmar and Morrow have reasonable contracts, which makes them somewhat valuable.
OK
1) Like I said, keeping all of our own picks gives us flexibility. I acknowledged that in a previous post. Not only for trades, but if this Deron thing turns out wrong, we’ll still have our picks to add young in the upcoming years. BUT if you expect this team to be good in the next few years (good enough for Deron to stay) those picks will be in the 20s. Could be helpful, but nothing of remarkable trade value. Feel me?
2)That is NOT true. The Nets COULD have 2 firsts in the 2012 draft. Key word COULD. The Rockets are entering a full rebuilding mode and I really doubt they’ll make the playoffs next year. And even if you believe they will it won’t be a lottery pick either so what?
3) I agree both have reasonable contracts. Farmar has neutral value, slightly positive at best. Morrow has positive value, but nothing remarkable either. None of those guys will land you an impact player. They may land you secondary pieces (which is what they are), but they will never be centerpieces in an important deal.
Harris had one good season and made the asg because frank made an offense based around his game. On another site I used to beg we trade him while his value was so inflated. People used to laugh when I used to claim Rondo > Harris.
Harris was physically and mentally fragile. Yes he had talent and his moments, but he’s an average at best starting pg. Imo he should be a 6th man type on a team.
by Jack Handy Jr on Sep 18, 2011 8:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
how could anyone say the DWill trade was not a win for the Nets
The Melo deal was the most absurd trade in NBA history. The Nets gave up the most selfish Nets PG since Marbury, a young PF with no fire, and a draft pick that may be a bust. How many games did the Nets lose in the 3rd Q while Devin was PG? How many times did Brook have 18-20 pts in the first half only to finish with 27. Devin held the ball for 15 seconds and would throw up a wild shot trying to draw a foul. 12-70? Who led that team? Devin Harris!
The Nets didn’t have to give up their most valuable picks(2012) and were able to save cap space by not taking on any xtra salary. No DWill may not resign but the chances are better that he stays because the Nets have capspace and a goal to be a contender
12-70? Who led that team? Devin Harris!
Actually, it was Brook.
I don’t think the Knicks gave up that much.
The right to swap picks in 2016 may end up being the best asset DEN got out of that deal. Other than that, this is what the Nuggets have been left with from that trade:
Gallinari (imo he’s overrated, just an OK starter, poor mans KVH). If the season is lost, Gallo will be a free agent.
Chandler is a free agent and ended up in China, so it’s not like the Nuggets got anything espcially good nor did NY lose something here.
Mozgov is not very good.
The Nuggets flipped Felton for Miller, who is 65 year old and who they could cut before the season starts meaning they would have got nothing but cap space for him.
Are u seriously blaming the kid with less than 3 yrs experience and can’t make a play without a PG? Devin Harris was a veteran compared to Brook and after VC left Devin was supposed to become a better leader. If the play wasn’t. Designed to get Devin a shot or an assists the play would breakdown and end up failing with a last secod shot by him or another player he would pass the ball to with 3 seconds left.
The Knicks gave up assets
Galo, Chandler, were restricted so they could got picks or a young player in a trade. Mosgov, Randolf were also good trade chips that will go on to be wasted. Whatever the Nugetts get for those players should be on the Knicks, terrible trade for a player that wouldn’t sacrifice money for winning.
by DJ HeavyDuty on Sep 18, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Just saying
Brook was supposed to be the guy and the best player on that team. Devin actually took a backseat to help Brook develop. Devin averaged less shots attempted per game than he did the year before when VC was still here. He also missed lots of games that season how can you blame him for his team losing games he didn’t play in? He missed games because his style of play is aggressive, he is an attacker. I remember all those times brought DWade’s name to talk about Devin’s style of play bein a reason why he missed games.
Was Devin a pass 1st pg? Nope but he was getting better at that. This past season he was averaging a career high in apg, he had 16 and 18 games in consecutive games, making him just the third player in franchise history to have at least 16+ assists in back to back games.
i dont know how anyone expects a 21 yr old to be the best player on the Nets. If he is then the team wont win more than 12 games. Devin was a disapointment as much as Lopez was. Yeah he had some good games under Avery but his feet were alreadt in the fire
by DJ HeavyDuty on Sep 18, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
You gotta be kidding me
Harris took a backseat!?!?! Harris couldn’t even stay on the court for most of the season. Lopez was NEVER suppose to be a good C, especially since there weren’t any high expectations for him. When its all said and done, the Jazz can never be seen as the loser of this trade, whether Williams stays or leaves. The Jazz got a average PG, Young PF, and the 3rd pick in the 2011 draft. However, I think the Nets did the right thing, whether Williams stays or leaves, by trading for him because you jump on any deal when it coems to aquiring a star player.
"Most people on this board are like a broken clock, Only right two times a day"
by Shameer1016 on Sep 18, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Easily
If this season is locked out & DWill walks, it would go down as one of the worst trades in the history of basketball. Harris+Favors+picks for a handful of games of an injured DWill on a team already out of playoff contention.
As for not giving up our most valuable picks, I would disagree with that sentiment. We potentially gave up our 2 most valuable picks, the 2011 #3 & the 2012 GSW pick. The 2011 #3 packaged with some other pick or small asset would have definitely fetched the #2 from Minnesota (Derrick Williams didn’t fit their team needs) or possibly even the #1 from Cleveland.
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