When a Star Becomes Available...Cap Space is Crucial
by Net Income on Aug 8, 2010 7:22 AM EDT
in 2010 Free Agency
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PrintThe Nets are $14.947 million under cap, second in the league to the Kings. Their goal is to have between $14 and 15 million in cap space going into the season and between $15 and 18 million next summer. They might trade for a power forward but are waiting to see how fast Derrick Favors advances.
Why hold on to cap space when there are good players out there who could help you? It's all about being ready to move quickly should the opportunity to acquire a star suddenly arise.
The reason is that every year, at the trade deadline and again on Draft Day, unhappy stars, even superstars, become available. Sometimes, the possibilities are obvious and well-publicized, like when Vince Carter or Jason Kidd, demanded trades from Toronto and New Jersey. Sometimes, they're not so obvious or well-publicized, like when Kidd and Carter were traded with little warning by Phoenix and New Jersey.
Preparing for that opportunity means having a menu of odd assets on hand because what most NBA teams receive for their unhappy star isn't another star, but a package drawn from that menu. History shows a combination platter of cap space or expiring contracts combined with draft picks, young players, cash and trade exceptions often satisfies the team looking to deal.
Nothing is more important that cap space. Large salaries can be swallowed up by cap space. The more you have, the more you can engineer a deal without matching salaries, without dealing in the arcane world of exceptions.
There have been a few exceptions to the rule. Sometimes stars are traded straight up for stars: Allen Iverson for Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd for Stephon Marbury and Shaquille O’Neal for Shawn Marion. But If you look at recent trades of stars who wanted out and what their former team got in return, you'll see the pattern holds true: teams that have odd assets wind up with the star.
(Players with expiring contracts are marked with an asterisk)
--June 25, 2009: The Orlando Magic acquired Vince Carter and Ryan Anderson from the New Jersey Nets for Courtney Lee, Tony Battie* and Rafer Alston*. The Nets also acquired two trade exceptions, one for $1.23 million (which was used to acquire Chris Quinn) and the other for $3.73 million (which was used to acquire Kris Humphries).
--February 18, 2008: The Dallas Mavericks acquired Jason Kidd, Malik Allen*, and Antoine Wright* from the New Jersey Nets for Devin Harris, DeSagana Diop*, Trenton Hassell, Maurice Ager, a signed and traded Keith Van Horn*, two future first round picks, and cash considerations believed to be $3 million. The Nets also received a $3.3 million trade exception (which was used to sign and trade Keyon Dooling).
--February 2, 2008: The Los Angeles Lakers acquired Pau Gasol and a 2010 second round draft pick from the Memphis Grizzlies for Kwame Brown*, Javaris Crittenton, a signed and traded Aaron McKie*, the draft rights to the #48 pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, Marc Gasol, and two future first round picks.
--July 31, 2007: The Boston Celtics acquired Kevin Garnett from the Minnesota Timberwolves for Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green*, Al Jefferson, Theo Ratliff*, Sebastian Telfair, the return to Minnesota of the future first round pick that was initially traded to Boston on January 26, 2006, and a future first round pick from Boston. Simultaneous with the trade, Kevin Garnett removed his ability to opt out after the 2007-2008 season and then signed a multi-year contract extension with the Boston Celtics which will begin in the 2009-2010 season.
--June 28, 2007: The Boston Celtics acquired Ray Allen and the draft rights to the #35 pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, Glen Davis, from the Seattle Supersonics for Wally Szczerbiak, Delonte West, the draft rights to the #5 pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, Jeff Green, and the better of Boston's own 2008 second round pick and Portland's own 2008 second round pick
-- December 17, 2004: The New Jersey Nets acquired Vince Carter from the Toronto Raptors in exchange for Alonzo Mourning, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams and two first-round draft picks.
--December 19, 2006: The Denver Nuggets acquired Allen Iverson and Ivan McFarlin* from the Philadelphia 76ers for Andre Miller, Joe Smith*, and two 2007 first round draft picks.
--July 15, 2004: The New Jersey Nets signed Kenyon Martin to a seven-year, $91 million contract with a $1.5 million signing bonus and a player option after the 6th season, then traded him to Denver for three future first round picks. The Nets also received a $5.2 million trade exception (which was used to acquire Marc Jackson after the Shareef Abdur Rahim deal fell apart.)
--July 14, 2004: The Los Angeles Lakers traded Shaquille O'Neal to the Miami Heat for Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant*, and a future first round draft pick.
Couldn’t they do better? That’s often the question asked after a trade. Raptors fans asked it after the Carter trade and Grizzlies fans practically screamed it after the Gasol trade. Probably, but sometimes GM’s want rebuilding pieces more than big contracts. With their stars gone, GM's are faced with bad choices. It was reported that in the hours after ESPN broke the news of the first Carter trade, GM’s called Toronto claiming they could do better. While Rob Babcock lost his job as Raptor GM because of the trade (and some atrocious draft choices), the trade did eventually free up money so the Raptors could sign inexpensive European stars and re-sign Chris Bosh.
And sometimes those draft picks and draft rights work out as well. Marc Gasol isn't his brother, but he's pretty good. Jeff Green isn't Ray Allen, but he'll be around a lot longer. In the case of the Nets big superstar trades, it can be argued that Courtney Lee and Damion James were by-products of the Jason Kidd trade and of course Vince Carter was acquired primarily for two of the three draft choices picked up in the Kenyon Martin trade.
One other thing: of the nine trades mentioned above, five involved either Bobby Marks or Billy King. They know how it's done.
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That’s fine and well. But we still need to plug all obvious holes, like the one at starting PF first. As long as our players are tradeable, we lose nothing. Then we can look for a star player.
OK. But waiting for Favors just loses time. We neeed a third solid big to play ahead of or to play behind Favors. A core of three bigs would give us a matchup advantage over most teams. A star player added at any position would then become an upgrade to an already solid team and not a plug-gap.
you dont know that
there is this conventional wisdom Favors won’t be ready…or that the Nets won’t just throw him in the lineup to see what he can do.
They signed May to see if he can part of the rotation at the four…and possibly the five. And Petro has said he expects to get some time at the four.
Again, there is flexibility here.
If we have to talk about shifting everyone out of position to cover a hole that can’t be good. We need a PF not flexibility. Then a star can be added at any position at any time in the future.
And it’s got nothing to do with Favors being ready, or starting or not starting. The coach can’t make him ready, he’ll be ready when he’s ready.
They signed May to see if he can part of the rotation at the four…and possibly the five. And Petro has said he expects to get some time at the four.
Again, there is flexibility here.
The flexibility that the Nets have is a PF who has had chronic weight problems, has had microfracture surgery, and has NEVER played more than 37 games in a season (averaging 30), and a back up Center who has never logged ANY minutes at PF in the last 4 years (82games).
This is not flexibility. It is fantasy.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
yehyeh
I agree with you about having 3 bigs, but we’re not in any rush. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions
we're not competing for a title any time soon
i’d rather that we focus on developing Favors first
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions
the refs will take care of his minutes
he’s a top three draft pick. you play him.
by Net Income on Aug 8, 2010 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed
He’s the #3 pick. Why people assume we are going to put him on the end of the bench is beyond me.
As I have said before, the only thing that will keep Derrick off of the floor is the length of time that it takes for him to learn how not to rack up fouls in the NBA game.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with all you guys
but I also feel we should get a solid starting quality PF if one becomes available, both because he will act as insurance in case Favors starts slowly and because he will then serve as a more than adequate backup PF for years to come once Favors takes over the starting PF job for sure.
I mean, if you can trade a third-string wing in TWill for a starting quality PF like Ilyasova, you do, if only because 1) he acts as starting quality insurance where you’re trading small for big and backup for starter 2) Ersan can be a solid backup on this team for many years 3) he balances out our squad 4) he brings more stability and playoff experience to the lineup
I’m not saying we HAVE to trade for a starting quality PF, but by the same token, it makes sense to do so.
Nets = Global
Knicks = Local
jeeeez
TWill is not a third string wing and Ilyasova is not even close to be worth losing OUR BEST WING. And, Ilyasova would get what 12-13 minutes a night? once Favors develops. Makes no sense.
nobody knows
Avery himself said he will let the kids battle it out and that there will be a lot of trial, so let’s give it a rest. We cannot pretend we know anything when Avery hasn’t even been able to practice with those guys. And, like NI said, with all the versatility and flexibility we have, depth charts are not all that illustrative of where each player stands.IMO, TWill is, by far, the most talented wing this team has, and if he does what Avery asks him to do and keeps the great play he displayed at the end of last season, there should be no way he’s a 3rd string wing. No way. Sorry. Avery already praised him for his LEADERSHIP and maturity, which he thinks bodes well for the future, and when he said this nobody asked him about TWill, he referred to that bc he wanted to. Avery said he already has an idea of how to use the kid and he thinks he gives us a lot of options, so let’s wait and see instead of making ridiculous assumptions.
"depth charts are not all that illustrative of where each player stands"
Maybe in training camp and preseason, but by the time the season starts, Avery will develop a consistent rotation, as any serious coach would. Players don’t like chaotic rotations, where they don’t know where there minutes are coming from and if they’re going to play on any given night and whatnot. In fact, last year, Lawrence Frank began the season championing how deep we were at each position which provided an opportunity for guys to battle each other out for a spot in the rotation, and we saw how that turned out. (I admit the key difference between then and now is a year ago, most players were in contract years).
The point is having an amorphous rotation/depth chart is not such a great thing. AND it won’t last for long, because Avery is way too disciplined to leave his rotation to chance.
Nets = Global
Knicks = Local
Big difference from this year to last
Last year the upside of the players in the rotation was basically set. We knew what Jarvis Hayes, Josh Boone, and a hurt Keyon Dooling were going to be capable of.
This year Damion James, a more mature Terrence Williams, Derrick Favors, Jordan Farmar, and Travis Outlaw all have a chance to be impact players and exceed expectations. This year the coaching element will make players accountable as well. You can’t compare last year to this.
The constant is injuries will play their part in the rotation as well.
You can’t compare last year to this.
Everyone needs to understand this.
It’s all new.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 9, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Ilyasova would get more than 12-13 mins a night
He is better than Humphries, and below you write that, “the other 23 minutes left at PF should be for Humphries” — so Ilyasova would get those 23 mins.
Meanwhile, with James and Outlaw at 3, Lee and Morrow at 2, and Harris and Farmar at 1, I don’t see how TWill will log so many minutes per night. Just in my estimation, you underestimate how many minutes Ilyasova would get and overestimate how many minutes TWill will get.
Nets = Global
Knicks = Local
No, he wouldn't
25 minutes a night… while he develops. Once he breaks out, he’s a player who will command 35+ minutes a night, thus leaving just 13 or les minutes for his back up. And Ilyasova cannot play center and wouldn’t get minutes at the 3 because we have Outlaw and James there.
As for TWill- he’s better than any perimeter player we have not named Devin Harris. I don’t want to repeat myself, so just check my post above for why I think he will get his PT. As I said before Avery says he already has an idea of how to utilize him and he believes TWill “gives us a lot of options”.
Just please come out and say it
Since you trust Avery, I assume you trust his proclamation that TWill is “definitely not a 3.” Since you are confident that TWill will get plenty of minutes, that means you either think:
1) That TWill is a better 2 than Lee and/or Morrow
OR
2) That TWill is a better 1 than Farmar (I’m leaving Harris out because you write, “TWill- he’s better than any perimeter player we have not named Devin Harris.”
So, please come out and say it — is TWill better than Lee or Morrow at the 2 or Farmar at the 1? I am curious to know your opinion.
Nets = Global
Knicks = Local
I myself am of the estimation that
Avery thinks TWill is not a better shooting guard than Lee or Morrow, and he is not a better point guard than Farmar. Hence why I write that you overestimate the number of minutes TWill will receive.
Nets = Global
Knicks = Local
I think my opinion is obvious
I like the strengths of both Lee’s and Morrow’s games. I just don’t think they are more talented nor complete as TWill is. Lee is a very good defender and you have to give him credit for his attitude and effort. But what else other than his D does he bring to the table? His shooting is inconsistent and streaky. He cannot handle the ball, unlike TWill. His ability to create for others is non existent, while TWill is a heck of a playmaker for a wing. Rebounding is not one of Lee’s strengths. TWill rebounds like a beast. Defensively, TWill was a lockdown defender in Louisville, and even if he must still improve, he has all the tools to become a very good defensive player. Avery already pointed out to his defensive strides during the SL. And of course, and unlike CLee, TWill can play three positions. Lee? ONE. Morrow is a heck of three point shooter, but what else does he excel at? I’d say nothing. He’s really good at shooting tho. But he is not a very good defender. Didn’t Avery love defense? He’ll have to improve his defensive game.
Look. we have guys who can play, and guys who can shoot. Maybe not as well as Lee or Morrow, but they can also gie you a better balance. Is Lee’s defense that much better than TWill’s to make up for the other aspects of the game TWill’s a vastly superior player at when TWill himself can play good and we have other guys who can also? Do we really need Morrow’s shooting that much to give up what TWill brings to the table when we have Outlaw, James, Farmar and even Lee who can shoot it from the perimeter?
Bottom line is none of our other wings can replace what TWill brings to the table. NO ONE. TWill’s skill set is very unique and NECESSARY. We need playmakers. Harris is better off playing next to a playmaking wing, we all saw this when he was playing next to VC, or when TWill broke out at the end of the season, Devin did well. Devin is a SCORING PG. You can make a case for farmar as a distributor, even tho he hasn’t been able to display his passing abilities with the triangle. But even if you assume he will be able to play his game here, you need more playmakers. Neither Lee nor Morrow can create for others. Outlaw doesn’t like passing. Harris is a scoring PG. 96% pf Morrow’s 3s came from teammates’ assists last year.
Look, AVERY HIMSELF praised TWill’s passing abilities and court vision, so he must value that. And that’s something NO ONE ELSE we have at the wings can give us.
Hey, I understand if you disagree with my opinion, I just don’t get why people make some assumptions. Let’s wait and see how Avery uses the guys. He hasn’t been able to step on a practice court with them, so who knows. If he says he’ll let the kids battle it out and that he’ll made several and different tries, then it’s obvious he doesn’t really know which combination will work out best, which is what you should expect at this point since he hasn’t worked with those guys yet, hence why I don’t understan why some are assuming AS A FACT this or that player will ride the pine or why some think it’s written in stone this or that player will start NO MATTER WHAT. Avery said “early on” and akcnowledged there will be a lot of trial, so who knows how the rotation will look like when it’s all said and done, he said we might not establish a definite lien up until the All Star break, let’s give it a rest, time will tell.
I mean
it’s not like TWill is Quinton Ross and he has Dwyane Wade and LeBron James ahead of him, dont you think? It’s not like if we drafted Evan Turner and signed LeBron. TWill is a kid we used our lottery pick on last year. That’s a significant investment, and he gave us many reason for promise lat the end of last season (On the trade for Bass fan post, I wrote a post mentioning Josh Smith’s similar break out at the end of Hawks’ 2004-05 dismal season, when they won just 13 games), not only with his much improved game, but also the way he became more mature off the court. Avery already praised his maturity and leadership. I loved it when I read this from an article in the Boston Globe about TWill:
In a game against the Pacers, Williams drove to the basket and was fouled hard. He pursued the offender and had to be restrained. Johnson, watching from courtside, called Williams over and scolded him for his behavior, advising the former Louisville standout that it wouldn’t be the last time he would be fouled aggressively.
Williams walked back to the free throw line, humbly uttering, "Yes sir,’’ to Johnson.
If Kiki got that much out of TWill, imagine what an actual coach (and a very good one) like Avery, who commands respect, could do with this kid. At the end of the season, TWill thanked Kiki for heling him learn his lesson, even if it was a tough process. He acknoledged that he wouldn’t improve if he was playing 30 minutes but shooting 3 for 19 or whatever. If you look at his stats at the beginning of the season, he was getting plenty of PT under coach Frank, yet he wasn’t shooting well and wasn’t averaging many assists. When he broke out under Kiki, he improved his shooting pcts and his assists number went up. I think that and what he said about Kiki helps you realize the kid understood what he needed to do in order to be a good basketball player and maximize his strengths. And he can get a lot better under the right tutelage, we’re talking about a ROOKIE.
The way he played for the last two months, if he keeps it up, there’s no way Avery will bury him on the bench bc of Lee or Morrow. I root for all of our players to do the best they can. And, at their best, I think TWill is the far superior player to any wing we have and I think he gives us the best shot at winning. There is evidecen he help the team become more competitive last season once he broke out, I’ve posted it several times.
Thank you!
Now you are on the record as stating TWill is a better shooting guard than Courtney Lee and Anthony Morrow. Since you didn’t address Farmar, I have to conclude you do not think TWill is a better point guard than Farmar. Therefore, in conclusion, you feel TWill’s role with this team is as starting shooting guard, because he is better than Lee and Morrow at that position. You feel he should be the distributor at the SG position, setting up other guys such as Harris, Farmar, Outlaw, James and the bigs.
Thank you for going on the record.
Nets = Global
Knicks = Local
I didn't really say he should start
I said he’s better and more complete than either Lee or Morrow, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he should start. I even think he’s better suited to come off the bench and fill in at any perimeter position depending on the opponent and how the game is going. Last year, when he played so exceptionally well during the last two months of the season, he was coming off the bench (yet getting 30+ minutes a night, which is was really matters), with Hayes starting. He may be better suited for that role.
As for whether or not he’s a better PG than Farmar- I have already said I don’t think TWill is a full time, starting PG, at least not YET. I think his passing abilities are special for a wing player, but maybe not so much for a PG. Can he play spot minutes at the PG? Sure. But it’ll be a learning process before he consolidates himself as a PG.
I must admit I have never been a fan of Farmar, but let’s hope he can show and develop his passing abilities here. I know the triangle limited him, but it’s been four years, I’m not expecting any miracles here, but I def. hope he can display his true game here. I don’t think Farmar is a better player than TWill. I also believe TWill is a better passer than Farmar until the latter shows otherwise. Is Farmar better PG? I don’t know. We have to see if Jordan can develop his pass 1st PG game here and how TWill develops his PG abilities too.
I mean, I wouldn’t be against starting him at all, he is a starting quality wing, I am just saying that’s not necessarily the role I think he should play. I’ll be happy if he keeps the role Kiki gave him when he broke out (coming off the bench, playing a lot of minutes alongside our star players, getting 30 minutes a night). I’m OK with Lee starting, as long as we reduce the minutes he got last year. I like the Morrow signing a whole lot, but IMO he’s too much of a specialist to start, but who knows.
T-Will IMO is Easily
The Best Wing we have. Just doesnt fit with certain players on the team because of his shot/shot selection. But to think C.Lee is better or Morrow is better i dont think they are. I love the MOrrow signing but if D.Harris doesnt get him the ball he’s a non factor. Same with Lee on offense he can create his own a little better but not that impressive. T-Will can Create his own shot and pass the ball. To me marrow and Lee are role players taht depend on people like T-Will to get them in position to score
T-Will is a wild card player...
They will find the minutes for T-Will, unless of course he’s in the dog house. T-Will won’t be traded for a 2nd rate talent and he won’t be sitting at the end of the bench.
Avery said TWill gives us a lot of options. He can come in and sub in for any perimeter position. AJ says he knows how to use him, so let’s be confident he can get the most out of him and use the kid the right way.
I agree with Andres... What's more important?
I think as long as the team utilizes it’s talent pool to win, that is more important then concerning ourselves over individual favorite players. I love T-Will but what is best for the team comes first. Same with Lopez, Harris and Hump. I have no doubt T-Will will find his place if he plays the way AJ wants him to play. He might end up starting or coming off the bench.
Same with C.Lee, Outlaw and the rest. Team should come first.
it's amazing how
…..a conversation about DERRICK FAVORS turns into another opportunity for someone to say that “T-Will is a third stringer”.
It’s getting pointless.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Its because the issues are RELATED. You are putting together a TEAM Bills. The parts are connected, and the value of a player on that team is something you have to assess.
And I wish people would stop saying he is a 3rd stringer. He he actually will be a 4th stringer because Harris will be getting time at SG with Farmar on the court (apparently). – joking, but not joking -
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
dude...
…I’ll say this one time. You’re not adding anything positive to the discussions on here because you are trying to bait folks into arguing with you.
I’m not going to get sucked into it, I’ve learned my lesson. My response to something like this next time won’t be seen by you.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You endlessly respond. What can I do? Some people think that TW is the Second Coming. If you follow what Avery has said he actually is (possibly) the 4th string SG. You don’t like what Avery or the Nets say, take it up with them. You don’t have to respond to my opinions, nor the facts that I post.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
@Mr DB
He’s the #3 pick. Why people assume we are going to put him on the end of the bench is beyond me.
As I said on another thread, I think he should get 25 minutes a night. The other 23 minutes left at PF should be for Humphries, and the spot minutes Petro, Outlaw and James could get there. I don’t see that big of a need at the PF, let alone if it costs us a significant amount of our cap space or one of our kids.
It’s pretty simple: why would we give up on any asset with any significant value for a stopgap who won’t take you to the next level or someone who even if he could be part of our future will have to ride the pine once Favors develops? or why would we give up on anything valuable for a big time PF, if they feel Favors- A GUY THEY INVESTED A TOP 3 PICK ON- will be great? Makes no sense, no matter how you look at it, IMO.
totally agree
that has been my biggest problem with trading for a 4. We are not competing for a ring so why not develop players?
If we were looking for short term improvements we would have over paid for the likes of Gay and STAT.
by killa kadafi191 on Aug 8, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
We can do both
At the PF, we need a starting quality P-F to rotate with Brook and Favors. Everything else about who starts, player development, short/long term is a smokescreen.
this is my whole point
We have a team full of young kids. We should worry about developing them and changing the environment as a whole, wins will come this season but not at the expense of our future growth and flexibility.
Involving Williams/Lee in a trade for anything other than a game changing player isn’t prudent. We aren’t in a rush, and looking at the signs, neither are the Nets, and I’m glad that they aren’t thinking like the fans are.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we’re done.
Harris/Farmar/Uzoh
Clee/Morrow/Ross
Outlaw/Twill/James
Favors/Hump/May
Lopez/Petro/Zobek
i would trade anyone but lopez, twill or favors. Anyway, i think nets are a playoff team.
"I want to win, I want the team to win and I'm in complete control."
-Coach Avery Johnson.
Mostly done
but I believe that with 12 guaranteed contracts, there is some room left. The three players with non guaranteed deals have a LOT to prove. And even if the Net don’t make any moves, there could be as many as FIVE more non-guaranteed deals signed between now and September 24. In the past, the Nets have had 19 or 20 players in camp.
and I think with all the flexibility and versatility on this team, depth charts are not that illustrative of where players will fall in the rotation, and of course for 100th time, Avery Johnson has said TWill is “definitely not a three” and TWill himself has said his favored position is the 1.
I know he isnt a 3…but does twill really have a position? Hes just a player that goes out and plays.
It makes no sense to classify him as a 1, 2 or 3….i think while he’s on the floor he will play all three positions IMO…
or does this make more sense?
Harris/Twill/Uzoh
Clee/Farmar/Ross
Outlaw/Morrow/James
Favors/Hump/May
Lopez/Petro/Zoubek
"I want to win, I want the team to win and I'm in complete control."
-Coach Avery Johnson.
i think Twill
can be the that man they call “jack of all trades” He can play with Farmar in the 2nd unit and let Farmar off the ball. Or he can play with Harris and let Harris off the ball. Its his ball handling and shot selection and shot itself that needs to be improved, a lot! During summer league he had some shots that looked great, and others that didnt, I know he isnt perfect but just a little consistency would do wonders.
people seem to forget
that stretch he had at the end of the season started with him playing the sixth man role, filling in at the 1 and the 2.
Of course, every thread must be about TWill.
Well
A lot of people have high hopes / expectations for Terrence. And playing him in the sixth man role would be ideal. At the same time i want to see James get some PT because of his versatility he gives at the 3/4.
I also think James will become a factor sooner than most people think. He is ready to contribute now, and his energetic play will make him a favorite.
I'm also high on James...
In fact I’m high on this whole Nets team. We will have plenty of time to see how all the pieces will fit together. “Hold on to that cap space money”. That’s what Thorn essentially told Proky when leaving. Wait for the right time to spend it on the right player/players.
this
I don’t understand what the rush is from some folks, we need to let things develop and build this team up.
Acting rashly from here on out will leave us stranded as a middle of the pack team. that’s not the goal.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
yup
I want to see Favors go through the learning process. i think that he can become a game changing force. Once he gets used to the speed of the NBA game he’ll be a productive player…starting THIS YEAR.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I would have preferred signing Boone instead of May
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
May, if healthy and motivated
is a much better offensive player than Boone…and I think Boone just finally wore out.
He does appear to be excited, if you read his twitter page.
i'll check it out
I mean, to me it’s a cheap tryout with no risk and all rewards for the Nets if this guy wants to seriously try to salvage his NBA Career. So it’s really not a big deal imo
I am just thinking that if May isn’t able to go then Boone would have been a better pick up but looks like Josh is in the past now.
Anyway, I am hoping that May stuns us all. Not really confident that he will though but that’s why they play the games.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
at MrDB
Me too, but I’m willing to give Sean a chance. He’s talented, but he brings too much baggage, that’s why I’m not sold on him. He has missed a lot of games, but there’s no doubt he has the skills to contribute if he’s ever able to stay healthy and in shape. Boone is a career Net, a good pro and knows his limitations, if we just wanted another body, I’d have preferred to keep him, but like Kerber said May is a decent gamble, and if it doesn’t pan out it costs nothing. He has to earn his roster spot during TC, so let’s hope he fights and shows he can make the roster, like NI said he looks very excited from what you can read from his twitter page.
yeah if he makes it, awesome, if not, it’s no skin off of our noses.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
For what it's worth....
I was just reading a blog concerning Sean May dated April 22, 2010, on the Kings SBnation site. I was surprised how many posters thought he was a good guy and decent player. Here is one Kings fans reasoned outlook on Sean and his future…
“May doesn’t belong in the NBA? That is just silly talk. He may not be part of the Kings future, but he has proven himself capable of playing at the NBA level. Some conditioning this summer and some weight loss and he will be an effective player for the Kings or another team”.
Yeah
The vibe from the SAC fans has been pretty positive towards May(who I have yet to make fat jokes about…..yet.), and the more I think about it the more I’m down to see what he can do for us. There is no risk at all here.
Much better than trading parts away to add PF depth.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
"Father knows Best?"
Maybe his pop, Scott May, who was the 2nd overall pick in the 1976 NBA draft, talked some sense into him. I just hope his knee is sound. If it is there will be no excuses for Sean. Hope it turns out a feel good story for him and especially the Nets…
We need to hold onto our cap space
While fans are assuming that nothing will happen and that we should just blow all of it on players that won’t get us over the hump, I’d prefer that the Nets develop the talent, breed a competitive, professional environment, and be patient and prudent with their cap space. Something will come up. None of us had a clue that Kidd or Carter were coming here, so just to assume that we’ll get nothing via trade is unwise.
You don’t compile the amount of assets that the Nets have gained(cap room, picks, young talent) over the past two seasons just so that we can pour it all down the toilet for something that isn’t a game changer. Thorn’s last words to this franchise should be taken very seriously. You don’t just do something to do it.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 9:35 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm all for holding onto our cap space
as long as we’re competitive. Last season was like 2 seasons. You can normally luck into more than 12 wins. If we can a play .400-.500 ball, then I’m cool with sitting back and seeing who comes available.
Avery said that Favors was “purely in the developmental stage”, and he’s still really unsure of what’s going to happen at the 4. He mentioned that Garnett played behing Sam Mitchell for half the season until he was able to start. Question is if Derek can’t start or isn’t able to stay on the floor because of foul trouble, can Petro or Hump/May get the job done? Nobody can answer that question right now. So I’ll wait and see and be hopeful that something positive comes out of it.
There are mental aspects to developing in this league, and from how Favors interviews he doesn’t really strike one as the most rock-steady dude in the world. He’s okay, he’s young, but he’s not prodigy-like mature, ahead of his years.
Its like when you have a 97 mph throwing 18 year old. You want to rush him up to the big leagues, but the smart teams DON’T. And there is a reason why you don’t. Confidence is a big thing. When a player loses confidence they lose a lot.
The Lakers went through this a lot with Bynum (who was 18 when he came in). They restricted his time heavily in the first year (7 min), in the second he was at 21 min. There are a ton of things to absorb when you come to the league, many of them not on the basketball court. If Favors is all that people hope that he is in terms of potential, and he is one of the few bullets left in our stud gun (our draft position changing with our record), why MESS with him?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
How a player comes off in an interview and how he plays are two different things.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
But not two completely different things. He played in college (at times) and in Summer League pretty much how he comes off in an interview.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that we will be competitive
Meaning, playing hard on both ends of the floor and being a tough out. I look at the roster and I don’t think that we’ll be terrible. Whether we win more than 30 games, well, that’s up in the air. But we will be competitive at least.
And yes, Favors will be brought along slowly, but he WILL PLAY, just like Garnett played until he was ready to handle a full helping on his plate. Until then I am fine with a platoon at PF of Favors, Hump, May, and Petro playing spot mins at the 4. We can also use James and Outlaw there when the situation calls for it.
We just have to have patience, we’re not in the mix to contend so why worry about anything but sitting back, and having some fun watching these kids play and develop? We will never see a season like last year’s again, I promise you that.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Jason Kidd was essentially turned into
Courtney Lee, Devin Harris, and Damion James?
Not bad.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
how is Lee attached to Kidd?
Not sure how you got to that one?
I'm not so sure
the Magic would have traded Lee for Ryan straight up tho. It was VC and Ryan for CLee and expirers, I don’t think you can consider two separate deals.
eh from what I understand it was pretty much Anderson for Lee straight up
the reports made it sound like the VC part of the deal was pretty much done for the expired contracts and then Thorn wanted C.Lee and they had to give up anderson to get him.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
NetProfit,
Ryan Anderson was the extra pick that we got from Dallas in the Kidd trade.
Ryan Turned into Courtney Lee
Honestly, if Lee continues to develop into a solid pro, Harris gets his tail in gear, and James is as NBA ready as he appears we could sit back and say that we took Dallas to the woodshed.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Dollar Bills is right
We shouldn’t try to make to much of a risky moves at best become the Atlanta Hawks, The Mavericks or the team we were when we had VC Kidd and Jefferson.
Playoff teams but never good enough to win or even compete for a title.
Getting a PF now would be only a short term improvement. As Dollar said we aren’t competing for a ring anytime soon.
As for the Star. I’m not interesting in chasing these current NBA stars. They are more interested in creating a trio than competing with their peers. We are going to have get one through the draft.
I feel the model we are going to have to follow is the Thunder to a T.
The Thunder have cap space as well but have not done anything to risky and are content true they have Kevin Durant a star player unlike his peers is showing a great deal of faith in his franchise. (no early opt out clause)
by killa kadafi191 on Aug 8, 2010 10:08 AM EDT reply actions
exactly
Rome wasn’t built in a day
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Melo is the target
The Nets will try to trade for Melo or wait until summer to get him to sign a big contract
agreed
not unless there is an agreement to an extension upon the trade, I don’t do it
These guys right now cannot be trusted to do anything but find a way to make some kind of Superteam. We can’t be bothered to let another player suck us into that foolish game anymore, we did this summer with James, that should have been a lesson learned.
Build from within.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
As Paul G just said
we would be renting him.
As I said chasing after these super stars right now will not do anything but have us give up alot for a player that will walk away.
We don’t want to be in the boat that the Raptors, Cleveland and The Nuggets will be in soon.
Let’s build the right way.
by killa kadafi191 on Aug 8, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Exactly. This was a nice try by NI, but we aren't buying. The odds are slim of getting and keeping a worthwhile star, who will significantly help future of team - before the trade deadline.
Might as well use the cap space for a 1 year rental, in order to make playoffs, without giving up anything significant.
If Nets make playoffs, that would be a Huge draw, as long as Nets have enough cap space next summer.
I disagree that Melo could just be a rental...
If the Nets could convince him to sign an extension upon arrival, it would be worth it. Doing that may be difficult but even if it is a two year extension, I would be happy for now. Nets management is one of the most professional I’ve seen throughout the NBA and if anyone can do it, it would be them.
The Nets should be appealing for Melo. He is from Brooklyn and would get there eventually, would be playing under Avery Johnson and would be surrounded by young talent (Lopez, Favors etc.). We will just have to wait and see.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
We would be buying if the right move came along at any point...
That’s why the Nets have stock-piled draft picks and have maintained flexibility. Let’s see what happens when the season rolls along and disgruntled stars emerge (they do every season, we just can’t tell who exactly they will be right now).
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
How often does it happen that a player signs an extension when picked up before the trade deadline? Wouldn't it have to be a Sign & Trade, with Denver signing Melo to the 65 million extension and then trading him to Nets, with Melo's approval?
In any case, a lot more could be known by around Thanksgiving about the future of Melo. He may have already re-signed. It shouldn’t be necessary to wait until trade deadline. By then, Nets could be 10 or more games under 500 and in jeopardy of both missing the playoffs and leaving 14 million in cap space intact with no benefit.
Before Melo would consider Nets, something like Amare would have to be injured and Nets would have to look like an attractive team for him. Denver is already a top 5 or 6 team, so it would be difficult to convince both he and his wife to come to the Nets. I suspect that Coach Karl would have a long talk with Melo soon, so that this mess doesn’t drag on through their whole season.
Right now, Nets don’t even know what the true value of their young players is. By Thanksgiving more should be clear. All I am saying is wait until then and then re-evaluate the situation.
by jerry25 on Aug 8, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
if we miss the playoffs
that’s another chance to draft high and get another quality young player, or someone who can be a flat out stud
There is no benefit really to making the 8th seed, but if we do, cool.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
if we do rent him 4 the 2nd half of the season it wont b bad
we would have extra cap space during the nxt off season than expected
we would have the 2nd half of the season 2 persuade him 2 stay a net
BROOKLYN
and we can offer him a max contract – he is worth it.
It would be crazy to give up the future of the Nets (which is what Denver would want from any team bidding for him) for just 2 months.
It would have to be a S&T first, with Melo first accepting the Denver extension and then being traded to Nets, with his approval.
There is no other way but a S&T. And the only reason I could see Melo going to a lessor team (than Denver) is because his wife wants to be closer to her Roots. She is unpredictable and she appears to be pushing his buttons and pulling his string.
basically
I wouldn’t agree to melo unless he sign an extension which he likely won’t.
from reports it looks like Melo is very interested in 2011 becoming the summer of “Melo” with him being the most sought after free agent.
Basically he seen his buddies go through this and now he wants that too.
I could see Denver trading him but it will be hard because he could just walk away unless the team is a contender
Bulls or the Magic
by killa kadafi191 on Aug 8, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
it’s pointless to rent him and give up anything of value
I’d like to see Carmelo Anthony play for us too but not if the circumstances aren’t right
Trading away assets for rentals and stop gaps is equivalent to bashing your skull in with the back end of a hammer because you have a headache.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
rec'd killa
agreed on all fronts man.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
DJ The only way the Nets get Melo is if we WIN 40+ gms
This is why all this talk we win 30 gms is silly, if everyone who thinks we win 30 gms and what melo then it will never happen melo has a chance to go to the knicks over the nets why? because the knicks will be winning over the nets
We got to win 40-45 gms this season if the nets think they have a Chance at Melo or even Paul these guys do not want to go to the nets who won 30+ gms when they can go to anther team who know how to win, If we do win 41 or 43 gms and make the playoffs we can should melo look we won this many gms without you and made the playoffs now imagine with you
The advantage with got next yr then this yr is we play one more season in Newark and then we go to brooklyn one of Melo favorite places and his wife
You add Melo to a Team with Lopez Favors Harris Lee Twill why cant we compete for a championship, we all just have to see how we do this season,
40+ wins=Melo
Less then 40=Nobody
"Avery Johnson: Erase to Replace"
Wall2KingJames to JamesSucks
by Wall2KingJames on Aug 8, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Just wondering
Now is that with the big 3 in Miami, who are the “game changers” that might become available? If we’re being realistic, is it only Melo and Paul.
Who off this list would change the Nets into a team that is competing for titles? Most of these player are either old or not going to be available. But even if we could wish one of these players onto the Nets who would it be? I took players like Durant, Dirk and Duncan off the list because it’s not realistic. These guys are the stars in the league now..
Chris Paul ,
Andre Iguodala,
Carmelo Anthony ,
Zach Randolph ,
Gerald Wallace ,
Steve Nash ,
Deron Williams ,
Marc Gasol ,
Brandon Roy ,
Andrew Bogut ,
Josh Smith ,
Rajon Rondo ,
LaMarcus Aldridge,
Tyreke Evans,
Rudy Gay
Paul and Melo are it and if Melo signs his extension, he’s off the board. I don’t mind holding onto cap space but the league doesn’t have a whole lot of “game changers”.
There are definitely some from that list that could be had...
Andre Iguodala has been stuck in Philadelphia for an underperforming team for too long, it’s time he gets shipped out.
The Bobcats are going nowhere fast and Gerald Wallace could be dumped.
Deron Williams could become unhappy if Al Jefferson is not ready by the start of the season and the Jazz start to fall. I personally think that they have peaked and Williams might want to jump ship.
Josh Smith could become available simply because the Hawks overspent on Joe Johnson. They have little flexibility and may be willing to part with Smith for much less than his current value.
This is all possible if seasons start to go badly for these teams.
The Nets are in a good position because they can follow their plan of developing their young talent without having to sacrifice their flexibility. But if someone becomes available, the Nets can pounce first, especially with a lockout coming ahead. The Celtics went from crap to excellent in one season because they had cap space and assets to get Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen to add to Paul Pierce. The Nets can easily do the same.
Worst case scenario? The Nets underachieve again and walk away with another top-4 pick, stockpiling more young talent.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't want Iggy. He has a HUGE chip on his shoulders and isn't a good teammate as a result. And his best days may soon be behind him.
He would want to be the Captain of any team he plays for.
Proky has already required that Nets make the Playoffs this year. There is no option to embarrass Proky by missing the playoffs.
Why should we believe that Proky isn’t serious about the playoffs, but IS serious about being a Champion in 5 years?
But the Key Question is Are we winning Gms, 40+, because if were not winning we dont have a chance at nobody on that list, we have to win and make the playoffs to show guys we can win gms and all we need is that superstar to lead us to the gold
"Avery Johnson: Erase to Replace"
Wall2KingJames to JamesSucks
by Wall2KingJames on Aug 8, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Yes, that superstar comes later one, as a free agent over the summer, but only after being successful first.
Follow the Chicago pattern.
what free agents
people keep saying they’re coming as free agents, but who exactly is going to be available?
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
OJ MAYO FOR T-WILL???
Memphs is looking for a point and may not wanna pay MAYO. Mayo may be a budding star… I Dunno
The JETS/NETS are coming!
I definitely take a serious look at Mayo
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 9, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I have been wondering about this whole idea of holding on to cap space for a mid season pick up. I don’t know of any examples of anyone ever doing it before. Now NI lists a lot of examples but none of them really apply. So, is it realistic? Or maybe just another example of giving fans something to be happy about even though it is not very realistic.
I posted several months ago that the “Prokhorov effect” would not be felt through player acquisitions before Brooklyn. He does not want to spend anymore of the $60M that he is on the hook for than he needs to. NI said my analysis made no sense, but it looks correct now. The reality is that the Nets are spending the league mandated minimum on salaries. That is plan B.
by ispartan on Aug 8, 2010 10:45 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
You would be right... but...
The Nets where going to spend big money on LeBron/ Wade/ Bosh. They offered 40 million
to Tyrus Thomas. Reports also indicated that they waived 75 million at Boozer and tons of money for Scola. After not acquiring the players they really wanted they decided to hold on to the remaining cap space monies instead of spending on lesser talent. I agree with that strategy. I have no doubt if a great, talented, impact player becomes available tomorrow, Prokhorov will roll out the rubles…
Now NI lists a lot of examples but none of them really apply. So, is it realistic? Or maybe just another example of giving fans something to be happy about even though it is not very realistic.
Its not realistic. None of the example moves are moves that are available this year. None of the players available are worth the contract they would lock us into aside from Mello and Paul who are not coming to the team, or fit on our team. It is a silly, ill-considered plan, especially when it puts the security of Favors growth at risk.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with both KV and ispartan on the improbability of anything great happening just before the trade deadline.
It would have to be a S&T of Melo with Denver and Nets, but there is such a small chance that Melo would prefer playing with Nets over Denver.
There is no need to drag everyone through this “HOPE” talk, all the way to the trade deadline, and then likely come up empty.
And we don’t even know if Paul will ever recover to be the same explosive player he once was.
As I said before, I will give the Nets until Thanksgiving, to re-evaluate the whole situation and go from there.
I don’t mind hoping, but let’s be specific about our hope. Let’s name names – and not list moves the Celtics and Lakers made with very different players available. Why pretend that those moves apply to us. Let’s talk about THIS season, this market for great players. Let’s talk about reality. Just saying we are going to save up all this cap space for a magic bullet move is foolish, especially when there are small money moves that can seriously effect the future of the team.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Are we reading the same article???
Doesn’t it say that should something pop up out of left field, the Nets are in a great position with cap space, draft picks and young talent?? Sounds like NI is just stating facts to me, and then giving examples of other trades… What good would naming names do besides give everyone something to argue about? It would be pure speculation, something we do enough of on here! The article doesn’t say we will make a move, but we could if something great was to come up.
by dbnet on Aug 9, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The article is made in context of other discussion Net Income has brought forward.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 9, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
rec'd
What good would naming names do besides give everyone something to argue about? It would be pure speculation, something we do enough of on here!
Exactly. Let the intellectual dishonesty cease on here, please.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 9, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
who are we not taking on
because of cost that would help Favors? I’m pretty sure, at least as recently as a few weeks ago, there were still plenty of perfectly serviceable front court players who could have absorbed minutes in front of him for little to no cost.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
The reason (or a reason) that Net Income put this post up was my Fan Post on trading for Bass (at 4 mill). He posted over there that we knew nothing about real basketball, and that we (those that agreed) were simply playing “fantasy” basketball.
He said that the ONLY thing that Nets are doing from this point forward is saving Cap Space for a great big deadline move. When asked WHO this deadline move might involve, he ignored the question (because he doesn’t know), and came up with this post.
Unfortunately he forgot when he posted how crazy trading for Bass is, that a week ago he himself listed Bass as someone the Nets might be interested in at PF. He’s kinda all over the place.
In any case, my argument has been that Bass makes a perfect fit to protect Favors in the long run. His salary is 4 mill, and if we can get someone to take TW it would be a 2 mill cap change.
Now…is saving up for a deadline move for unknown and unnameable players more important than finding a good long term shepherd at PF for our 19 year old, I don’t think so. But that’s the argument, as far as I can tell (though Jerry has another plan).
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
God knows.
Net Income seems to feel that it would, but that is because the “trade” in the future involves nobody. Its a fantasy trade.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus Gina, whomever we are trading for it is not a Championship move. It would be a franchise locking up move.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm open to all plans, but the common goal is to have an exciting young team that will make the playoffs this year, and still have lots of cap space next summer.
It could be getting a good deal on a promising rookie or inexpensive contract or a suitable player with a large and expiring contract (eg: Murphy, where Nets would have the big advantage in ability to absorb the contract so that both sides are happy.).
The other proposal is to beef up the critical center position, if it is shown that Petro can play PF (Its not likely he could play both 14 minutes at Center and 15 minutes at PF. We will find out by November that Zoubec isn’t the answer.
If Petro, Sean May, Hump can cover the balance of Favors minutes at PF, then all Nets would need is a pretty experienced backup Center and team is set for playoff run. Any good expiring would work, but I happened to throw out the name of Krstic’s 5.5 million expiring, he may be available.
Point is it IS reasonable to find a player with an expiring, who Nets could get real cheap, and could be enough for a playoff run.
If the idea is that the Nets are waiting....
….to use their cap space on a deadline move or to have 18 million in room next summer, what’s the problem? There is no need to do anything just for the sake of doing it. I don’t want this team to wallow in the middle of the pack, so I’m willing to be patient and let things play out.
Net Income can’t tell you WHO the Nets would be trading for in any possible deal because things can change drastically between now and the end of February.
Baiting someone into answering questions that don’t have a concrete answer is dishonest, similar to the whole doling out the minutes game. None of it is based in reality because we have to wait to see what happens.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Net Income can’t tell you WHO the Nets would be trading for in any possible deal because things can change drastically between now and the end of February.
We can list the number of high level game-changing players on two hands. He can’t list anyone because there is nobody other than paul and mello. The Heat locked up 3 of them this year. There is one in LA. There is one in Portland. Come on now.
It is fantasy that something will just “come along”. The idea of not fortifying your position cheaply just for one great big unknown move makes no sense.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
cheaply?
define cheap. Cheap is signing someone to the vet min, or maybe a two year deal at 1-2 two million per, something that won’t kill cap flexibility.
Giving away Williams for a loaf of bread until we see what we have with him does not fall into the category of “cheap”. End of discussion.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you traded TW for Brandon Bass you would be paying 2 MILLION a year more. That is CHEAP.
TW’s contract:
$2,214,480
$2,369,040
$3,143,716
Bass’s contract:
4
4
4
That means you would be paying Bass Net a year
1.8
1.7
.9
That is known as as dirty cheap expense for a starter level or very good back up PF.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
The 6 year pro vet minimum this year is 1,069,509
You would be paying NET less than a million more than the vet minimum, and getting a player HIGH above vet minimum ability.
And you can STILL save your pennies for Paul and Okafor.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Brandon Bass and Anthony Morrow have the same contract commitment, but the Nets decided that TW was so good they had to go out and get Morrow to take minutes from him. In the over all contract expenditures Bass’s contract is completely in line with what they are paying for players of even less impact.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The Nets needed shooting to space the floor.
So we went out and got one of the NBA’s best shooters. Had nothing to do with Williams, no matter how much your disgust for him tells you so.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
How can you say that the guy they got has NOTHING to do with TW, when he plays the SAME position?
Hello?
The went out to get shooting because TW shot 33% from jump shot range last year.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
excuse me
.344 eFG%
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
The whole team shot bad smh
We won 12 games but yet everything is T-will’s fault, besides the fact that if it wasn’t for him we would hold the record for fewest wins.
I didn’t say it was TW’s fault. I said that TW is a horrible shooter, and because of this they went out to get Morrow who plays the same position.
To say that the Morrow signing has NOTHING to do with TW is a joke.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Your making it seem like it has everything to do with T-will
He didn’t even start or play meaningful minutes until towards the end of the season, maybe Harris or C-lee have something to do with it as well??
You are NOT following the conversation.
I don’t blame TW at all for last year’s record. Or, he deserves less blame than almost all the significant players.
What I said was that Morrow was brought in because the Nets did not find TW sufficient, and he was brought in for 4 mill a year.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
T-will didn't play the 2 position last year plus he was a rookie
Morrow was brought in to be a two guard, maybe C-lee and the departed CDR were the men on the hot seat and I like Lee.
Morrow was brought in to play the 2 fully knowing that this was TW position on THIS years team. An assessment was made.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m glad you like Lee. But the TW debate is essentially a Lee vs TW debate because the smart thing would be to trade one of them. Morrow’s not going, and the non sniper minutes are going to be divided mainly between Lee and TW.
That is leaving aside what apparently Farmar was told, that Harris would be at the SG as well.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't get this "unless you love TW you are not a Net fan"
I like Lee better than TW, I like Morrow better, I even like Harris better at SG.
Why does that mean that I am devaluing Net players because I think that THREE of them are better than ONE?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The worst shooter on a poor shooting team
The whole team shot bad smh
That is not really true either. Or at least you have to compare HOW bad:
From eFG% from “jump shot” range:
Dooling: .473
Lee .439
Harris: 396
TW: .334
From “close”
Lee .590
Dooling .568
Harris:.510
TW ..481
A full 10% worse shooting percentage than Lee at both far and close.
Am I not a Net fan to bring this up? Am I not a Net fan because I don’t sift through the data and find periods of time where TW does well? What about praising Lee? TW is a bad shooter and the Nets got Morrow because of this.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry, to add CDR:
jump: 379
close: .515
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I really don't even want to continue these pointless arguments
….but why are you trying to single out T-Will, yet, when Lee is a 2 guard as well? In fact, I don’t even want to know.
Clearly, they went out to get shooting because no one could hit the broad side of a barn last year, but you want to make this soley about Williams, which is blatantly dishonest. Just like you’ve done in every other topic posted on this blog, somehow or another the discussion devolves into a debate about Terrence Williams and usually, you are the person veering the thread into that direction with your pointless cheapshots at him as well as an overall degradation of the entire roster, which is unnecessary and extreme.
EVERY Thread, it’s usually a dig at Williams and then it’s followed by a stream of dishonesty, purposely baiting folks into stupid arguments, or trying to get people to answer questions based on pure assumption and speculation that really can’t be answered honestly.
No offense, but I see through the stuff that you are trying to pull and it’s run it’s course. If you make a great point, best believe that I will respond to it with my thoughts because that’s what we’re here for and I look forward to that, but this type of stuff isn’t producing productive, positive discussion and never will.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 9, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
People keep saying things happen drastically
but um what proof of that is there? When have these things actually happened that people are basing this idea on.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Also that seems to be a frequent response
saying people don’t know basketball and then disappearing.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
it's more realistic than thinking
spending it on some so-so players will make a major difference.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
The major difference that can be made is making sure Favors does not have expose himself to major minutes on this team. He, like it or not, is the WHOLE future of the team right now. You just don’t play with fire and say things like “the refs will sort out his minutes”. There are mental aspects to development too.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Is Favors that fragile?
The Nets tried spending money on PF’s they thought were worth the cap space. Do you now take some of that money and players or picks to obtain a player that is not as good?
Maybe you do. I would rather hold the cap space money for something special, this year or next. If that player doesn’t materialize you still can go plan “B”. As for Favors, his performance will determine how much he plays. I think Favors will play better then expected.
We don’t know how fragile (or young) Favors is.
Everyone for the last few months was going on about how YOUNG Favors is. When he looked confused and unskilled in Summer League it was: Give him time! He’s only 19! Give him time!
Now its: Let the refs sort it out. Give him 35 minutes a night!
It just makes no sense.
And the “cap space” you are talking about is the difference between 14 mill and 12 mill (ideally). Now, what trade are you going to lose out on?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Who is this player that you are speaking of?
Brandon Bass? It takes two to tango. Maybe the other team in any of these “great” deals don’t want a deal.
Yes.
Agreed. I suspect that the sticking point is the Magic.
Net Income wrote this post in part as a response to my Please Trade for Brandon Bass, which unfortunately devolved into another Terrence Williams is great rant by Andres B.
I completely agree that it could be that it takes two, and given that the Magic thirst after outside shooting for their offense they may ask for players the Nets don’t want to give up, or, may not even like any Net players at all.
In part this is just a discussion of whether the PF position should be shored up at relatively low cost, and if a great dealine move is a great idea to bank one.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry: Please Trade for Brandon Bass
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Why are you so obsessed about a babysitter for Favors?
He is going out to play basketball, not heading off to war. He has enough atletic skills to compete at the highest level and the experience will only come with…..experience on the court. We have a wave of top flight coaches and support staff now on board to help him including proven big man coaches and successful former head coaches. We have moderate expectations for the year so no one is demanding he become ROY and lead us to the championship.
Its OK to let junior go out in the yard and play…..honest….
Why are you so obsessed about a babysitter for Favors?
Because, like it or not, he is the precious cargo of this team. We cannot afford for him to turn out “pretty good” or “damn good” or even “a beast”. He has to turn out to be at top 15 player in this league in order for it to have a whiff of a Championship run.
Anytime you can buy insurance on the cheap for such a player, you go get it.
As far as expectations go, this is the largest media market in the US. The guy does not interview very well. There are all kinds of expectations put on a guy and you cannot anticipate what they are going to be. The expectations might come from all the new hangers-on at the club who keep telling him he’s a “beast”, pumping his ears with nonsense.
Growth is a fragile thing sometimes. Sometimes not. But you protect your investments when you have only a few shots at greatness.
I’m not a huge Favors fan. People know that I have been won over by Cousins’ ceiling. But now that we have him we have to take care to make the most of it.
And all the coaches in the world cannot predict what will happen when he starts fouling out in 5 minutes, embarrassed one way or another. Maybe he’s tough as nails, maybe he’s not.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess I should have said “da club” and not “the club” to not confuse it with the team itself.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
And its not a “babysitter”, its someone who can perform a sold and productive level in terms of minutes so that Favors can sit and watch and develop in his own time. If he excels, so much the better. If he doesn’t, there is a fall back.
If Brandon Bass is getting 15 and 9 and the Nets are losing nobody is running to Favors’ locker night after night and asking him what is wrong with him. If Favors is getting 7 and 5 and looking lost on D, people are saying: What’s up? Even his crew is looking at him funny.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong solution for a non existent problem
Its basketball – what are you trying to protect him from? If we were on step away from a title, then you buy in a short term veteran to put you over the top. We are not so we need to develop him together with the rest of our young talent – together being the key word.
You think finding someone to play in front of Favors will reduce the questions from the media?
You think finding someone to play in front of Favors will reduce the questions from the media?
Completely. When you screw up on court you get questions about it. When you are on the bench the coach gets questions. This is how it goes.
I don’t know how you assess the existence of the “problem” of Favor’s growth. If it becomes a “problem” it is already too late. You treat it as if it is not a “problem”.
What is the WORSE thing that happens? You spent 2-4 mill on a really good backup who Favors has beat out for minutes, and you have one of the best young PF rotations in the league.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
You do not draft someone #3 to then test him against disposable players
Test him against other NBA players. As NI noted, the refs will help sort out his minutes.
My point on the “problem” is noted above – it is non existent. You have created one where it does not exist and then gone to great lengths to argue the potential solutions….which are not even good solutions for your made up problem.
by Jay-dub on Aug 8, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Have you heard of Andrew Bynum?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
You Mean The Injury Prone. Wating To Break Out Player
That has been in the league for 5 seasons now?
Yeah… I would love it if NJ was emulate the way LA was able to groom Bynum into the dominant, healthy force he is today!
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean the guy who was brought along slowly because it was necessary. Injuries have nothing to do with the point.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
And yes, the guy who if healthy this year is a better young Center than Lopez.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I can quality it in terms of skill. Bynum was brought on slowly. He was given a long term project of offensive moves (years), but a strong short term project of becoming a defensive and rebounding force. He was told to put his offense on hold, basically. The result is a player who is a better paint presence in the ways that make a Center dominant.
Lopez on the other hand became an offense only Center. His brother was basically given the defensive and rebounding chores at Arizona. Lopez never really learned what Bynum learned through his development.
Its nice to be able to score, but a Center has to defend and rebound, to change the game. And now that Bynum has this foundation he is working on his offensive game which has been de-emphasized.
This honestly is probably the best path for Favors as well. We want him to be a shot blocker and a rebounder BEFORE he is a scorer. Then he can be all three.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh Ok
So, the player who still has problems staying on the court due to foul problems, since he was never forced to learn how to stay on the court?
The player who the Lakers play better without in that they won their title 2 years ago without him and then last year with an injured Bynum?
The player who maybe gets injured because he’s not forced to be in better shape and have the expectation of being on the floor?
-The player who has been in the league 3 more seasons that Lopez and produces inferior numbers?
Yes, LA did a great job with him!
Meanwhile give me the player who :
-is Younger
-Has been in the league less years
-Produces better numbers
-Has never missed a game in 2 seasons
-How has been forced to come among quickly offensively and has answered
Ever look at a trade proposal with Bynum involved? Other fans don’t want to touch him. Injuries, salary, slow progress, etc..
Ever seen a trade proposal with Lopez?
Other team’s drool over him. Rookie contract, quick progression, durability.
And yes, let’s bench Favors as much as possible so that he
- has low confidence
-does not learn how to play against real competition
-does not learn how to stay out of foul trouble
Again, I’ll be happy with 20-25 minutes, low expectations, yet real competition and real progress.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
So, the player who still has problems staying on the court due to foul problems, since he was never forced to learn how to stay on the court?
That was a problem TWO years ago. Not this year.
The player who the Lakers play better without in that they won their title 2 years ago without him and then last year with an injured Bynum?
I guess you were not watching the finals this year. Even a severely limited Bynum had a significant impact on the series. They probably would have lost the series if he had not been able to go at all.
The player who maybe gets injured because he’s not forced to be in better shape and have the expectation of being on the floor?
You don’t seem familiar with him, nor the nature of his injuries. There is no “get in shape” problem with Bynum.
Yes, LA did a great job with him!
It has been only one issue, injuries which were not avoidable.
To this day he is a better center than Brook. Easily.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
You don’t draft 18 year olds and expect them to play huge minutes.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I did not say huge minutes
I have stated that we start Favors to ensure he is learning with the first team in as predictable and stable a system as possible.
His minutes should be +/-25. This will be determined in part by his ability to avoid foul trouble.
Huge minutes are 38+. Starters minutes are usually 32+. 25 is barely the majority of available PF minutes. Use them wisely which for me means starting him.
Bynum was a nearly unknown high schooler drafted by a team with very lofty immediate expectations. Again not a valid comparison. Go try though……
Bynum was a nearly unknown high schooler drafted by a team with very lofty immediate expectations. Again not a valid comparison.
Favors’ immediate expectations are much loftier than Bynums were. Bynum played 20 mins a night in his second year in the league.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
And I still don’t get what your problem is with spending 2 mill on insurance?
Do you think that you want to absorb Okafor in a Paul trade?
Where is the thinking?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
rec'd
Jay Dub, good post.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
and honestly kv....
….your ideas about finding a baby sitter for Favors seem to have less to do with Favors and more about your obsession with degrading the talent on this team, or finding a reason for shipping Williams out of here.
Favors will play. He will learn. He will take his lumps. You’ll have to deal with it. He’s an 18 year old kid, but he’s not a child that needs to spoonfed and burped.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
….your ideas about finding a baby sitter for Favors seem to have less to do with Favors and more about your obsession with degrading the talent on this team, or finding a reason for shipping Williams out of here.
I’m not degrading anyone. Favors is just YOUNG. He has potential. You take care of young guys with potential.
As for making up reasons to trade TW, I’d be find with trading Lee if that is what it took. Lee is a better player (I’m I “degrading” the Nets talent if I tell you that I would rather have Lee than TW?). TW is the obvious choice due to contract and game, but I highly doubt that the Magic would take him.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
How many big men as young and raw as Favors
have been thrown to the wolves and turned out “fine”. Players don’t just magically develop playing overmatched.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Completely.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Please quote me...
…where have I said that I want Favors to be thrown to the wolves?
I’ve always talked about platooning at PF and splitting the minutes, but making sure that Favors gets the proper amount of minutes to bring him along a good pace.
But he WILL play. That’s my point. Not sure where the throw him into the water before he learns how to swim stuff is coming from.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 9, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
He has enough atletic skills to compete at the highest level and the experience will only come with…..experience on the court.
There are tons of very athletic players who bust in this league. So skilz has almost nothing to do with it. Second of all, he looking horrible for most of Summer League against bottom level talent. Was his last game an aberration, or was it a sign of his growth, we don’t know.
But most of the growing up in the NBA does not occur on the court. It occurs in your personal life, and in practice. What happens in the first year on the court is almost meaningless when you are at Favors “developmental stage” (as Avery calls it).
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
His athletism does not guarantee he will be a star....
It does ensure he will not be in over his head on the court. The part he needs to learn is on the court.
And again, he has a huge support system from the team – including reports that former coach of the year and Chris Bosh (Georgia Tech early entry) coach Mitchell is with him.
A summer league starting with uncertainty and deference to teamates ending with a dominating performance and his stating he is stronger then even he suspected is all very good. He is ready. Worry more about your boy Cousins who started strong and then once teams figured him out (amazingly fast I might add) he goes into meltdown mode. There is someone who needs a babysitter to get him off the court – because his athletic skills are not good enough and he will have to learn to deal with a new environment where he is not the biggest or strongest or best.
The first step will always be hard…..make it early. Having him start next year when expectations are much higher will be harder.
It does ensure he will not be in over his head on the court. The part he needs to learn is on the court.
He was over his head in summer league. Gerald Green is over his head on the court. Being “over your head” has to do with your “head” not your skills.
No reason to discuss “my boy” Cousins. Not worried about him in the least because he’s not on my team. I’d like him to develop his skills because I’m a fan of great BBIQ talent, but I don’t really care what he does outside of that.
But yes, if Cousins was part of this team I would be making similar arguments for different reasons.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Green is not a valid comparison
Favors is a post player expected to deliver defense, rebounding, put back points and energy to start the season. Nice try though……
And if you look at Favors tapes you see a guy who knows how to play the game. He is not a workout wonder – he is a basketball player.
Green is a more than valid comparison because athleticism can protect you on the perimeter much better than it can in the paint.
Favors is a post player expected to deliver defense, rebounding, put back points
Nice to expect that, but he had done none of these things well in college, and he does none of these things well now. Maybe he will learn, but these are not his strengths. He is REALLY, REALLY good at dunking down an open lane, and he has some nice offensive moves. He lacks any sense of a motor (as of now) that would make him excel at the position game that you are hoping to get from his “athleticism”.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I see you are giving up the discussion
Devolving to silly statements is usually the last stop. Might be quicker to just type…..“because”…
I am completely serious. Favors was not a defensive force in college. He was not a rebounding force, and he isn’t often in position to thrive on put back points (which requires working for it). This is how his game HAS been. He has been a dunk machine in high school where he dominated everyone physically, and in college he was unable to create a real presence consistently because the guards wouldn’t give him the ball. These are just the facts of his game.
If you expect him to do all kinds of things he hasn’t done, its probably not happening right away.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Favors was the 74th best rebounder in the nation.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Favor's skills were misrepresented
At this point in time, he is not at all the defender/rebounder he was advertised to be. But his shot and post moves are much better than expected from a “raw” 18-year-old.
This is one of the reasons we really need to go after an established PF right now. We need interior defense and rebounding to help out Brook. We won’t be getting that from Favors for a while.
At this point in time, he is not at all the defender/rebounder he was advertised to be. But his shot and post moves are much better than expected from a "raw" 18-year-old.
Thank you.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
As
Alex Kennedy broke on Tuesday Melo will not sign the extension and will look to become the biggest free agent in the summer of 2011.
Which he also said that Melo wasn’t concern about the lockout but if you look at things,
George Karl has already stated this could be his final season.
Billups is older.
JR Smith is a headcase and basically blame Melo for ball hogging(what)
Martin is in his last season.
The Nuggets ran their course and really made no improvements since giving the Lakers a scare in 2009 post season.
Their biggest move so far Al Harrington.
never been to big a fan of him
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/430044-why-carmelo-anthony-isnt-a-franchise-player
brings up a lot of good points.
His friendship with Amare will be the driving force to play for the Knicks. I feel they will be a great team but no championships. Neither can be the leader on a team.
Which is why they need CP3 but is he still the same player??
CP3 is demanding trades to the Knicks and Magic but has to prove he is healthy. The Hornets are in the drivers seat.
CP3 wants this done before the season because I think he isn’t the player he was. By the time the season starts that will show.
Which will only make his stock drop and the contenders will think twice about blowing up their chemistry for a player that is a shell of his former self.
Let’s be honest Paul is going to have to push himself and body to the limits just for his team to be competitive. Which could lead to another injury and so on.
While the Hornets push comes to shove when Paul gets injured put in Collison.
I feel the Knicks will create their “super team” but I doubt if the results will be anything more than Eastern Conference appearance at best
by killa kadafi191 on Aug 8, 2010 10:49 AM EDT reply actions
which is why we should worry about our own house and not chase another pipedream
Haven’t we learned any lessons from the LeBron chase?
exactly
Build from within.
Worrying about other teams’ players, players who have their own agendas, will get us nowhere.
Let the Knicks deal with that garbage.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
why
are yu taklking abotu the KNICKS. what is the obsessio with comparing the nets to the knicks. why please tell me why.
I'm bring up the Knicks
because the two biggest stars that Nets fans are interested in have been connected and will likely join the Knicks which means we should stick to the current plan instead of becoming a good playoff team and not a contender
by killa kadafi191 on Aug 8, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I just want.
Chris Paul, then whoever comes after. I was really skeptical about it earlier but then I thought to myself we really messed up this offseason. Sure we solidified our bench but our starting 5 sucks. The people we picked up are/ can be tradable assets.
NO is in no hurry to trade Paul unless Okafor goes with him and NO gets nice young players back (Favors).
And unless Paul proves he is the same explosive self (not likely after incomplete surgery), I don’t want that risk.
This seems like a response to kv’s Brandon Bass fan post
by R-D on Aug 8, 2010 12:25 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
No its more likely a response to my posts for using the cap to get a proven 30 year old starter like Troy Murphy, who has an expiring $12 million contract.
Murphy would be a “big” PF and also complement Favors, being a spread 4 (3 pt. threat in the clutch). His numbers last year were 15pts/10 boards and he has played (as starter) for 72-75 games in each of the last 3 years for Indiana.
If Murphy was any quicker, he would be a star, and thus unavailable.
It was recently reported in the Indiana press that there have been inquiries into obtaining Murphy (no proof yet that Nets are inquiring). Indiana is looking to clear cap space (10 million over at present) and develop their young players, but Larry Bird indicated he wanted to wait and see the health of Hansbrough and Foster before dumping Murphy.
Hopefully, by Thanksgiving, Nets, Indiana and other teams will have an idea of what direction they are going and who would be available (ie. may be able to rule out CP3 and Melo).
Absorbing Murphy’s expiring contract SHOULD BE ONE OPTION at that time, without giving up anything significant.
If Nets had Murphy, then a Playoff spot would still be feasible. Could re-evaluate needs at end of year with Full Cap space intact again, or re-sign Murphy for much less.
I have a question for you guys who do you think has more potential going forward
Uzoh or Farmar??? I’m really intrigued by Uzohs potential think we need to hold onto him, super athletic, is 6’3 might be still growing, and can shoot better than I thought.
Is this really a question?
Uzoh was undrafted and Farmar backed up Fisher on the way to two titles playing in the triangle where he had no chance to show off his play-making ability.
Farmar, no questions asked.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I know Farmar is the easy answer
But I’m talking about prospect who might have the higher ceiling, in terms of physical traits etc, all I’m saying is think about it, I know Uzoh hasn’t played yet except for the preseason but he has a good body and is still growing, I think we all know Farmar’s ceiling, but do we know Uzoh’s.
I have a better feeling about Uzoh than Zoubec. Uzoh may have some value in a trade, later on, if only he could make team and have chance to prove himself.
Uzoh can be a combo guard which has value.
If say Uzoh makes team and Harris or Farmar are injured early, Uzoh could get lots of PT and look really good.
Then if a deal for say a PF was available, Uzoh could be a desired throw in.
My concern though is if Nets have 16 players (at 15 with Sean May), Uzoh may be cut.
I would rather get an upgrade at backup Center, which is more critical at present.
I think we all know Farmar’s ceiling, but do we know Uzoh’s.
There is a chance that we know Farmar’s ceiling, but there is also a good chance that we don’t. I’m talking ceiling here. Its safe to say that he has his flaws, those were seen in LA, but those flaws were not put in the context of his strengths.
Just how strong are his strengths, I think we are going to see. But his ceiling is higher than Uzoh’s. When he came out of college before he joined the Triangle (remember, Smush Parker was running the triangle once, that is how little it asks from a PG), he was arguably the most dynamic PG in terms of all around skill in his class.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Smush Parker was the lead PG in the triangle (+30 min) for two season when he was 24 and 25. Last year when he was 28 he was playing in China. You don’t need to be a PG to play PG in the triangle.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
we have no idea what we're going to get from Farmar
I feel that he will look like a very different player this year now with some room to work and not having to be stuck in the suffocating triangle.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
By getting Sean May, Nets are able to put this PF and Cap Space issue on hold until around the start of the season.
I’m not sure why Dave D. is doubtful that Sean May would make the Nets team? Seems that he already has his weight down (under 265) and isn’t this his 3rd year recovering from micro fracture surgery (the extra year could be what was needed?).
Anyway, a healthy May, inspired by Avery, is what the Nets need – if only he could take off from his level of play in 06-07 season.
If May works out reasonably, Nets can justify to themselves, waiting for the start of the season and evaluating just what they need.
My new prediction is that by Thanksgiving, things would be more clear, not just for Nets, but for Denver, New Orleans, Indiana, etc.
Since Proky still requires Avery/King to make the playoffs, then if that doesn’t look possible after November, a Big Move is in order. That means using their Cap Space (& picks), which is their biggest tool, without trading young assets like TWill, Favors and DJames. If they picked up an expiring (or a Rookie contract), then most of the cap space would still be available for next summer. The overall plan for Proky would be intact, but Nets could be a playoff team (look what being a playoff team did for Chicago!).
King should have a better idea by Thanksgiving, what the odds are of pulling off some grand deal for a Star.
I doubt if the odds would be better than 1%. In that case, Plan B – goes into effect.
Nitpicky
Wasn’t Humphries traded for Najera? Did they use that $3.7M exception?
I don't want to think about the details but Najera was pawned off to Charlotte, which is admission of Dallas' mistake and hopefully it will help Nets pass Charlotte for a playoff spot.
That was one of the best moves Nets have made (undoing their bad move to take him). I expect good things from Hump again this year, under Avery.
As Net Income wrote 8 days ago
Net Income: "Last week, we listed a few point guards who we thought the Nets would be interested in if they are indeed going for "glue guys". This week, we’re going to take a look at a couple of young power forwards who play for teams that appear to have decided to go in a different direction, leaving these guys available. In both cases, their teams have to be thinking about the luxury tax and may not need a player in return…
..The second player out there is Brandon Bass of the Magic. Bass, at 6’8", is a power forward…period. He’s being paid $4 million over each of the next three years, making him a bit more expensive. Bass thrived under Avery Johnson, but has done nothing before or since Dallas. He averaged 8.4 ppg and 4.5 rpg in 19 minutes a game over 160 games in Dallas. But after signing a $16 million deal with the Magic, Bass played in only 50 games for the Magic, averaging 5.8 ppg in only 13 minutes a game. The Magic are way over the luxury tax and don’t seem to have much love for Bass, focusing instead on Ryan Anderson as their backup 4"
July 31st, 2010.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
Net Income: Nothing is more important that cap space. Large salaries can be swallowed up by cap space. The more you have, the more you can engineer a deal without matching salaries, without dealing in the arcane world of exceptions.
This is a fine and dandy thing to say, but what you have to measure is whether the large salary you are “swallowing” up by cap space is a franchise changer. What are we talking about here? Taking on Okafor to be able to have Paul? Because nobody can list the actual players in the league that might be available that would be worth “swallowing” large contracts for (Melo?, Paul?), this point is nearly meaningless. Once you swallow a large unwanted contract your DONE. You are locked in for years. All this “crucial” cap space is finished.
There are not that many C-level players in this league. The idea that you are trying to get room to swallow contracts to get one means you better know who you are after, and have a good idea if you can get him.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
Just like yesterday...
You’re thinking is way too strict and linear regarding cap space. The point of flexibility is that if something comes up along the way, you can adapt quickly to strike. Sure, the Nets definitely have a list of potential targets as does every team, and while it is not public, it definitely exists. If you need exact answers, you’re not going to get them. Are you telling me that you knew all along the Nets were going to trade for Jason Kidd? Vince Carter? No way you can say that.
Regarding taking on Okafor for Paul, I absolutely would. If you are concerned regarding cap space, Prokhorov has the financial ability to easily buy out Okafor. They did it with Mutombo and would have done it with Mourning. They can do it again.
Okafor would also fill your believed PF gap. He could start and provide insurance for Favors this season at a minimum and would still provide solid scoring and rebounding. He has played in all 82 games the past three seasons and has quietly overcome some of his injury difficulties previously in his career.
The Nets can trade Devin Harris, Terrence Williams, Kris Humphries and a 1st round picks for Chris Paul and Emeka Okafor.
The Nets then become:
Paul/Farmar
Lee/Morrow
Outlaw/James
Okafor/Favors
Lopez/Petro
Clears up the logjam and immediately makes the Nets a contender. Do not underestimate the current players on the Nets roster and what Paul’s impact would have on this team. I don’t think that makes the Nets “DONE” as you put it. Paul has carried the Hornets by himself in the past and can again; the knee stuff is overblown IMO.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
If you don't understand what Net Income is talking about and/or dislike it, then you are not going to be happy with Nets management...
End of story.
This is their plan and they’re sticking to it: To develop their young talent while keeping flexible in cap space and trade assets to make a move if it comes along.
The whole issue of adding another PF is a non-issue because it goes against the Nets strategy. They tried to get Scola, Boozer and ultimately lost because Scola took less money because he wanted to stay in Houston and because Boozer screwed them over by not asking the Nets if they would counter the Bulls offer. The Nets were willing to spend and obviously feel that trading of other players on the market, like Bass, is not worth their time.
You may not agree with it, but that’s what the Nets are doing.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
The whole issue of adding another PF is a non-issue because it goes against the Nets strategy.
Says who? Net Income? A week ago he was singing another tune. Do I have to post his words at length again?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Net Income: "Last week, we listed a few point guards who we thought the Nets would be interested in if they are indeed going for “glue guys”. This week, we’re going to take a look at a couple of young power forwards who play for teams that appear to have decided to go in a different direction, leaving these guys available. In both cases, their teams have to be thinking about the luxury tax and may not need a player in return…
..The second player out there is Brandon Bass of the Magic. Bass, at 6’8", is a power forward…period. He’s being paid $4 million over each of the next three years, making him a bit more expensive. Bass thrived under Avery Johnson, but has done nothing before or since Dallas. He averaged 8.4 ppg and 4.5 rpg in 19 minutes a game over 160 games in Dallas. But after signing a $16 million deal with the Magic, Bass played in only 50 games for the Magic, averaging 5.8 ppg in only 13 minutes a game. The Magic are way over the luxury tax and don’t seem to have much love for Bass, focusing instead on Ryan Anderson as their backup 4"
July 31st, 2010.
The Nets (or Net Income) don’t seem to be sticking to ANY plan.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
NI is playing the company tune by telling Nets fans to be patient, and good things may happen if you are patient.
That doesn’t mean that behind the scenes, King is doing his due diligence and checking into all the available players and what it would take.
As I surmised not long ago, I believe that Avery thinks that if he can get TWill to be successful as a SG, then CLee because a nice piece for a trade later on.
By getting Sean May, Nets have bought themselves some extra time to be patient. I will give them until Thanksgiving to sort everything out. If Nets are 4-12 to start the season, then they had better make a move to have a chance for playoffs.
Jerry, I know your theory. What I like about your thinking is that it is wide scale, taking several aspects into consideration at once. And your expiring contract idea is interesting.
But that being said, some of your judgments are just plain off to my ear. They are not worth debating about because they involve hidden plans and motives which are just not knowable. Better is to just take people at their words.
I do agree that this “wait until we land a star at the trade deadline” when it doesn’t involve an actual star in mind is opium for the masses.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I will add this
I do agree that Lee is more tradeable than TW, and if that is the plan they will likely get more value for him.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Jerry
I don’t think that being patient is the company line, it’s common frickin sense dude.
If the goal is to be a contender, we aren’t going to get there by being impatient and behaving like our friends across the river.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
If the goal is to be a contender, we aren’t going to get there by being impatient and behaving like our friends across the river.
If the goal is to be a contender they you have to follow the HoF rule.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Mikhail Prokhorov and Billy King
Both said so…they would make a trade for a veteran PF to fill the void only if it came cheap and didn’t hurt their cap flexibility.
They also stated it wouldn’t happen for awhile. The Nets are most likely done with any major player movement until camp.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I am going one step further and say that no major move would happen until after Thanksgiving - that is patience enough.
This of course is conditional on Sean May looking reasonably good and could be affected by whether Avery likes how Petro plays at PF (alongside Lopez hopefully). In that scenario, more of a decent backup Center would be in order, thus expanding the players Nets could go after, in an attempt to make the playoffs while preserving cap space for next summer.
Possibly one of the 5 additional invitees to training camp will be an experience BIG, who could still make the team over Zoubec.
I hope they can find someone.
There are different ways to define cap flexibility. I define it by have cap space next summer.
Having cap space throughout the season is just unused potential, once it is realized the limited possibilities of a great trade that will help the Nets for years to come are less that 1% likely.
Only a S/T for Melo where Nets would have to pay Melo his 65 million over next three years is acceptable, though costly. Melo would have to agree to come to a depleted Nets team.
Barring that, Nets should use as much of the Cap Space that they need to, so that they meet Proky’s requirement of making the playoffs this season. First though, they have to see what talent they already have, as do other teams, Nets would be trading with.
Waiting to the trade deadline may be too late to make playoffs.
You’re thinking is way too strict and linear regarding cap space. The point of flexibility is that if something comes up along the way, you can adapt quickly to strike.
You should read this Fan Post in order to understand the rarity of “coming along the way”.
Regarding taking on Okafor for Paul, I absolutely would. If you are concerned regarding cap space, Prokhorov has the financial ability to easily buy out Okafor.
Perfectly debatable (and it has been debated). But it has to be debated in terms of its likelihood, its consequences, and the risk of waiting for it. I have long been in favor of trying to trade for Paul (but not sure that trading for Bass removes the possibility, in fact it might increase it).
If you don’t understand what Net Income is talking about and/or dislike it, then you are not going to be happy with Nets management…
That’s funny, Net Income just 8 days ago wrote favorably about the possibility of trading for Bass. Strange out “Net management” and “Net Income” (I confuse the two of them), keep changing their minds.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
“how” not “out”
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
NI also wrote about getting Ilyasova from Bucks, since they were overloaded now at PF.
Ilyasova may have more upside, until it was learned that he is probably 3 years older than stated.
If Ilyasova has a poor start to season, he might come cheaply.
However, Nets have habit of getting bad deals from Bucks, so Fear The Deer.
I honestly don’t understand his wildly varying position (and the authority he tries to speak from when he is contradicting himself). I’ll say that I don’t know Ilyasova very well so I can’t really comment on him.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Okafor would also fill your believed PF gap.
Actually not. He is extremely slow-footed and hasn’t played PF in years. You got to know the players you advocate trading for.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Okafor could easily play PF...
He, in my opinion, is not a true C.The Nets would have a serious advantage down low regarding interior defense if Okafor was playing PF alongside Lopez.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
He hasn’t played PF in more than 3 years. When he came out people thought of him as a PF but after the first year experiment he was moved to Center.
So, who are we going to believe? ZR’s personnel assessment from afar, or what NBA teams have assessed?
Okafor would never be able to get out on any wing jumper from a PF, and he notoriously has hands of stone and very little offensive game. I believe he has one of the highest having-his-shot block rates for big men in the league (if I recall correctly).
Other than you simply stating this, I have no idea where your opinion is coming from.
Did you think that Cousins and Lopez could play together?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Stop putting people into places
The NBA is a league right now where most of the big men are PF/Cs, not just PFs or Cs.
Amare Stoudemire – PF/C; David Lee – PF/C; Pau Gasol – PF/C etc etc
And I thought that putting Cousins and Lopez together could have potentially worked if Cousins could work on his conditioning. His offensive abilities would really help the Nets and Lopez from receiving constant double-teams in the post. While they may not be great defensively and slower, they would easily dominate a team like Miami on the interior who have an undersized Udonis Haslem and weak Chris Bosh at the 4/5. Ilgauskus is done and is a backup IMO, so he’s not even part of the conversation.
Favors was the right pick over Cousins because of Johnson’s system where an athletic PF would fit because he could run the floor. If the Nets were playing under Frank still who slowed the team down, Cousins could have been better.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Amare Stoudemire – PF/C; David Lee – PF/C; Pau Gasol – PF/C etc etc
All of these guys are fast, mobile guys. All the things that Okafor is not.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, from summer league, Cousins was running the floor extremely well with guard-like moves (more advanced than Favors) Cousins' weakness was in elevation at the basket, especially when tired (he looked like Shaq of 2010 at times around the basket.
Favors was moving more methodically, like a slower center, but one who can elevate. Hopefully training will make Favors quicker and more nimble afoot, but I would like to hear of other Bigs who improved at those fundamentals.
he's thinking linearly
because just saying, well maybe something will happen is absurd, if that’s the case we could be waiting for ten years.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
so do you advocate jumping off of the bridge?
I’m sure that signing David Lee to 80 mil would have put us over the hump
Being smart and patient and doing nothing are two different things.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 9, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you just LOOKING at his height. Okay now.
I can tell you haven’t watched him play, nor even familiarized yourself with his history in the league.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude...
Who do you think you are? I believe that Okafor, while limited offensively, would most definitely improve their interior defense. Lopez does not need someone next to him who commands the ball to score, he needs someone who can help him in team defense. That’s why the Nets failed so miserably with Yi and Lopez together, it was a poor combination on both ends.
Some of the best big man combinations have a better defender and a better scorer. Even with the Lakers you can argue that Gasol needs Bynum because of his size and defensive prowess where as Bynum needs Gasol’s scoring ability to take the pressure off of him.
If Johnson is looking to improve their defense, Okafor would be a step in the right direction.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Who do you think you are?
I am someone who thinks that when someone looks up Okafor’s height and declares him a capable PF they are not talking substantively anymore.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Lopez does not need someone next to him who commands the ball to score, he needs someone who can help him in team defense.
While Okafor is helping in the lane clean up Lopez’s mistakes the 15 ft jumpshot will be WIDE open all day long. Okafor has a great problem getting out on shooters, which one big reason why he plays center.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Same could have been said about Jason Collins
But I remember how amazing he did guarding Chris Bosh in the playoffs a couple of years back. Collins can’t jump over a piece of paper.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You want Jason Collins back?
Do you realize what Okafor’s contract is?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
You want to pay “Jason Collins”:
$11,540,375
$12,541,812
$13,543,250
$14,544,687
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
We've been there big guy...
Okafor could easily be bought out by Prokhorov.
To get him with Chris Paul is something I’d be willing to do. Paul plus Lopez, Favors etc. makes them instant Eastern Conference contenders.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
So your plan is simply to buy out Okafor? Why are you talking about how great an addition he would be at PF?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
First off...
don’t put words in my mouth…I’m looking at the positive aspects of his arrival on the Nets. I know that there is downside but I’m trying to stay positive because if that’s what gets Chris Paul, then I’ll take the chance.
I never said how great of an addition it would be. Ever.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
And I’m just trying to make sense of all the things you are trying to claim at once.
1. Okafor is a PF because of height.
2. Okafor can defend the position because he’s like Jason Collins.
3. His contract doesn’t matter (even though it would crush our cap) because Prok can buy him out.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
you can't just buy out a contract
also Prokhy is rich because he isn’t insane. He isn’t going to just buy out a 50 million dollar contract.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
What are the cap effects of that?
I’m sure the first year you are hit. But how about longer?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
it's prorated
so if we bought him out for 40 million and he had 4 years left it’d be a 10 million cap hit every year.
So basically there’s no advantage to a buy out unless you can drastically negotiate down the price.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Cross out that crazy idea.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
And I agree, even when billionaires buy teams (Portland), they do not go around swallowing up huge contracts in buy outs. Paul Allen is worth 16 Billion but he runs the team as a business. Prok surely will do it similarly.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
KV
Please tell me then what you would do with all this cap space.
The only thing I’ve seen you do is a) nitpick and everyone’s argument without making one of your own and b) talk about picking up Brandon Bass.
Let’s look long-term and not short-term here.
I would indeed keep as much Cap Space as possible, but not under the illusion that some “star” is going to be available at the trade deadline. REAL stars are very hard to come by but keeping your Cap down is a very good principle.
But WHILE you are keeping your cap down you should also address the talent level of the team if you can. The trade I hope for is one which adds less about 2 mill to the cap which is nothing really in terms of cost/reward.
I am looking long term. I’m looking WAY down the road with Favors. McDyess, who Favors is compared to often in a valid comparison too SIX YEARS before he was an elite player. SIX YEARS. I am looking six years down the road.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Six years down the road in the NBA?
Might as well look six thousand years down the road or six minutes. If you were Nets G.M starting right now, what would you do?
I believe I answered that, but I can restate.
1. I would try to trade TW for Bass, would be willing to trade Lee though but wouldn’t want to. Might take a third team.
2. Examine very closely the ability to trade for Paul, but refuse to take Okafor, knowing that I might be strung along.
3. I would try to keep the cap down as low as possible in the context of the first 2 things.
4. I would try as hard as I can to get Rubio who has question marks but the kind of upside that can change a franchise.
5. I would have a long term plan of trading Harris because his salary and age just does not fit the long term arc of the team’s progress.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Trading TW for Bass is really a poor decision
Your trading the Nets lottery pick from last season for someone whose contract exceeds his talent level to provide “insurance” for Favors. What would make more sense is the for the Nets to pick up Kwame Brown for one season as insurance rather than trade an excellent asset for junk. Or start Humphries to maintain that cap flexibility. Trading T. Will no matter who is in the wing rotation is just poor management if it is for Bass.
I don’t really care that the Nets have a “logjam” at the swingman position, T. Will is too valuable to trade for a guy whose upside is a backup PF.
As for the rest of your points, your plan is very very similar to Nets management’s plan. They will definitely try to pry Rubio from Minnesota but that would probably be harder than getting Paul without Okafor.
Harris will most likely get traded long-term but will stick for now because of his relationship with Johnson and his age.
So then besides what you said, what else? Well, you would continue to develop the young talent and build through the draft and keep the cap space with the hope that something may come along that you did not intend. You continue to ignore the fact that teams have and will continue to trade their good pieces at the deadline, that’s what the cap space is really for: to make trades. We have all seen what happened this year with FA; it’s a major risk. The Nets, with their cap space, have their list of targets and will continue to contact teams throughout the year. If they can’t get that guy they want, they’ll go to the draft again and find talent that way.
Like I have said before and you never commented on, did you think the Nets were going to get Jason Kidd or Vince Carter? Me neither…
I think regarding the cap space just because the name of a player has not presented itself yet you ignore the Nets position. The have positioned themselves to be a major player if and when any major NBA player becomes available. That’s it, done and done. Nothing more to it, I feel your just longing to know every little detail and honestly, your not going to get every detail.
Do you watch LOST? You must have been really frustrated with the finale…
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay. Another TW fan who would not trade him for anyone in the league. Sigh. Another guy who doesn’t care if TW won’t have any minutes. What can I say.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
No, you are the one is trading him for anyone in the league by putting his trade value along the lines of Brandon Bass when it is way higher. I’m not going to pull the trigger on that trade just to do it to give Favors 40 games to come off the bench. The smarter move is to sign a veteran PF like Kwame to the vet minimum and keep T. Will. Or start Humphries, have Favors off the bench and hope that May is good enough to be the 3rd PF. Taking on Bass’ contract is completely against what the Nets want to do because of the amount of $ on his contract and the length of the deal. Humphries is the smarter short-term and long-term option.
You are predicting that T. Will gets no time at all. Camp has not even started yet. Open competition is a very very good thing for a coach to have and in the end if T. Will gets no playing time and is then disgruntled, then it is fair to move him.
But to trade him for Brandon Bass is just dumb. They can do better than that.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
why is T-wills trade value way higher than brandon bass?
he showed flashes for 6 weeks…so has Bass. and Bass is a big man. So what exactly are you basing his value being way higher on.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Gina,
The TW fans think he is off the charts.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
i mean i like t-will
and would prefer not to trade him, but I think it’s pretty likely the rest of the NBA sees him as a current scrub with some upside…much like Bass. Not a future superstar.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Agreed on all points.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
You Would be Surprised How Much Other Fans
Like T.Williams.
And for that reason, I am not at all opposed to taking advantage of his perceived value and exploring trade options that make sense.
Fans tend to be enamored by young players with potential and nice stats.. it’s not just Net fans.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously
But again, I will admit I do not have any inside connections, I do not know any GM’s or front office types for any of the 30 NBA teams.
Thus when trying to gauge the perceived value of any player I do by two things.. rumors/articles about a player, and what fans think. IMO fans are the closest things we have to the actual insight of a team or their front office.
What else is there to go on?
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 9, 2010 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think we all think TW is off the charts, (ok, some do) but some people are intrigued by him. He played very well as a rookie for a short period of time on a bad team without a coach. I don’t really know what I am getting with TW. Bass has been in the league for 5 years, you know what you are getting with him.
“Intrigued” should be the watchword here. That’s not what I keep hearing, but it is a good word.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 9, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I hope TW does turn out great, but he is the kind of player that teams would like included in a trade. I am not trading him for Bass though. I don’t think we should get hung up on Avery saying he is not a 3, or how many minutes he gets. The thing I love about the current roster is the flexibility and potential for so many different line ups. If someone is hot, they may get more minutes than they did last up. Hard to plan against too. Avery wants to win, so just because he made a statement one week into his coaching career with this team about TW not being a three, I dont think it is gospel.
for god's sake
he was our lottery pick LAST YEAR. And he gave us reason for hope with his tremendous play to finish the season. Cut the kid some slack. Funny thing, is people question this kid, a ROOKIE, and think guys like Farmar or Bass, who have been along for 4 and 5 years and have shown very little, will be great. Give me a freaking break already.
deep breath Andres
I think we are kind of saying the same thing. Kind of. I hope TW is as good as the glimpse he gave us towards the end of last season. I hope we keep him and he is a gun. But, it is not set in stone that he is going to be a superstar. Some people on here are positive he is the second coming!! I hope he is, but I wouldn’t be putting my house on it!
I never said
he will be a superstar.
As for my post, I was actually supporting what you were pointing out to, sorry if it didn’t sound like that!
What I like about TWill...
…is that he is very gifted physically, from strength and size to his vision and aggressiveness. But he has yet to show that special mental trait of the elite player, that awareness of what stands between them and winning, and that drive to overcome those obstacles, including their own flaws. If and when Twill ever finds that kind mental focus, that “will” (no pun), he could be great.
If not, he will remain a talented but lovable knucklehead.
not "that" Jersey Shore...Point Pleasant, 10 refreshing miles north of Seaside.
by John at the Jersey Shore on Aug 9, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but remember he was a rookie
Who really did not get much time to shine until the end of the season without a head coach. So I mean the sample size is pretty small but to see him at least finish well while most others on the team pretty much gave up.
I've Chatted With Magic Fans
Who would do Lee for Bass in a heartbeat.
I don’t know their stance on T.Williams, but my point is there is little attachment by Magic fans to Bass, and w/o knowing the front office personally, that is the best barometer we have.
I think they would do either Lee or T.Williams fairly quickly for Bass.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
thats their fans
the same organization hung onto Gortat and traded Ariza for some big man scrub.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
I'm Just Posting This as An Example
My point is.. when I have seen T.Williams discussed by other fans they love his potential, stat-filling.. etc. It’s not just NJ fans. I rarely get involved or say boo either way, but yes he does have a good deal of interest by many fan bases. Why degrade that perception or not look to exploit it?
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
oh I agree they should exploit it
my issue is more with nets fans who think he should be untradeable because he’s going to be a superstar.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Yeah, I'm Torn on Him
But… IMO it’s not just Net fans. T.Williams seems to really get a hype by a lot of other team’s fans. That’s part the reason I think KV is so unreasonable in his stance about T.Williams and T.Williams’ supporters on here. There are others that actually think this too.
I do see people’s reasons for optimism, and I do see people’s reasons for concern.
Personally I feel he falls somewhere in between.. a 6th man who could reach an ASG or win a 6th man of year if he pulls it together mentally and leans to shoot.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Jack
Ithink he has good upside and maybe Allstar potential at best he is Andre Igoudala in my opinion. Fans are to glued to T-Will end of story.
I Know And It's Not Just Net Fans
Dime Magazine is buying into or trying to sell the hype.
The NBA made him a Rookie of the Month
And like I said, I’m always surprised when I see other team’s fans drooling over him.
My worry though is this.
The hype and value is there now.
We need to either trade him now, or make sure we play him to keep that value up.
If we don’t trade and him and don’t play him, we missed out on an opportunity to get something good for him.
If we don’t trade and play him, chances are he will produce and show he has a future with this team, or a future with another team.
If we do trade him, of course we run the risk of him breaking out somewhere, but that is better than some of the alternatives IMO.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone
will get traded T-Will or C-Lee if we dont its talent sitting on the bench.
I got
a reply from a T-Will supporter that Morrow is a three Ithink its ridicoulous.
ridiculous?
Avery said he can play the 3. But then you will use Avery’s words to say TWill cannot play the 3. cynicism at its best.
yeah exactly at best to me he's AI-2
but people seem to think he’s going to be a slightly lesser lebron james. the guy can barely put the ball in the hope.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
the guy can barely put the ball in the hope.
One of the most informative typos ever.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 9, 2010 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
come on, Gina
TWill is not a scorer, but he can be OK on O. Over the final two months he averaged 14+ ppg on 44% shooting. Not great, but those are good numbers for a guy whose main strength is no scoring.
I don't think anyone said that
It’s trading him for a temporary solution that’s the problem. It’s a dumb move, period. Now if we’re talking about him being involved in something more substantial, sure. No one is untouchable aside from Lopez really.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 8, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
You dont have to belive me
go see for your self the reply I got from Andres B Morrow will play the 3 supposeively Avery said this in the T-Will breakout thread he is not a three so dont give me that bull stop the nonsense one of these guys is going to get traded end of story don’t act like T-Will is is untoubable when he is not I like him alot he is talented but one has to go Lee or him it is unfair to any of those guys Morrow, Lee or T-Will to be buried in the bench when all should play 30 minutes a game they are not getting 30 minutes a night playing together my point is one or maybe both will get traded in small/big deal agree or not?
If you dont you have to be more open minded. If you dont like what I like dont reply i told you this already.
looooooooooool
So you say whoever doesn’t agree with you has to be more open minded. Do you realize how cynical that sounds?
I just find it baffling...
…that people are confusing the idea of not wanting to trade a 2nd year player for a short term solution with thinking that T-Will is some kind of untouchable superstar.
Totally off base. If you can’t see the reasoning behind not wanting to dump Williams, or Lee for that matter, just for a short term solution at PF, fine, that’s your opinion, but stop trying to pin this awful “oh, you must think Williams is the next Lebron” stuff on people who have not even come close to saying anything like that. It’s dishonest and it’s not getting us anywhere.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 9, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
at Gina
Maybe because has been FIVE YEARS in the league and has NEVER averaged 20mpg a season? HE IS WHAT HE IS. He was a THIRD STRING PF last year. Ryan Anderson beat him out of the rotation. Williams was a lottery pick last year. And again, Josh Smith didn’t break out during his rookie season until the final two months of the year. Until those finals two months, he hadn’t averaged double digit scoring numbers nor 30+ mpg. And the Hawks won THIRTEEN games that year.
I mean
he showed flashes for 6 weeks…so has Bass.
TWill has played in the NBA for one year. Bass has played in the for 5 years. Do you see the difference between showing flashes for 6 weeks out of 1 season and out of 5?
And Bass has never ever played at the level TWill during those final two months of last seasons. In FIVE years as a pro, Bass has averaged double digit scoring numers in just TWO months (November 2007 and January 2009).
You are predicting that T. Will gets no time at all.
Three people who are not him gave been listed as having time at SG.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
“have” not “gave”
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude,
Again, you do not know basketball, if you want to trade Terrence for Bass! NO WAY, NO HOW!
LETS GO NETS!
by JustinNJ on Aug 8, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
By the way, hows your Okafor's contract can be bought out theory coming?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
You just admitted that the Nets...
might not be able to trade T-Will for Brendon Bass. But your 2nd mission after failing the first, is to get Paul without Okafor. Your 3rd goal is to keep the cap as low as possible! Now you want to add on Rubio? When does the fantasy end? Or I’m missing something?
I am listing priorities. When you are a GM you don’t just get to make every trade you want.
I my mind if you traded TW for Bass you can STILL keep your cap low as a priority. Being 12 mill under the cap is STILL keeping you cap low.
And Rubio will not have a huge contract.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Why Wouldn't He?
I’ve heard if he waits one more year to come over (maybe it was two) he can circumvent draft pick salaries rules and would be entitled to large pay day.. I can look for that article in a bit.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
no that's not true
because Scola didn’t come up until like 4 years after he was drafted and was subjected to the same scale rules.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
I'm Not Sure if the Author is Correct, but it May be True
Rubio will not be inclined to terminate his contract with Barcelona next summer if there’s no new collective bargaining agreement by then. Also, if Rubio waits until 2012 — three years removed from his draft year — he’ll no longer be bound by the rules of the NBA rookie scale, which, under the current CBA, would pay him an average of about $3.6 million his first two years, a sum that will likely be below market value. Freed from the rookie scale, Rubio could negotiate like a free agent with the team that holds his rights, receiving anything from the mid-level exception ($5.85 million this season) to a maximum contract if a team has the requisite room under the salary cap.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/basketball/nba/06/18/rights.held/index.html#ixzz0w42XV2as
It seems like a shady work around, but I have heard this a couple times before.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Was Scola a 2nd Round Pick?
Maybe there is a difference.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
KV? Slow down a bit...Your typing fast but not making sense...
You want Bass and Rubio? Great… But those teams don’t want to trade you Bass and Rubio. What next???
I thought you were asking me my wide range thoughts for this year.
I have no idea if they would trade Bass or not. Maybe the Nets are working on it. Maybe they have to find a third team who would take TW or Lee.
As for Rubio, I agree that he will be hard to trade for because Kahn is crazy. He loves PGs about as much as we love SGs it seems. But I consider Rubio “get-able” and would be willing to overpay for him a bit.
The “what next” besides these two is basically Net Income’s current position. If you are not going to trade for a PF and you are going to hoard young SGs, all you can do is play the year out and hope for something to happen with cap space.
Everything revolves around trying to get C-level talent for me.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 9, 2010 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
As I said, SOME question marks, but super upside, the kind of thing that can change a franchise, and the kind of guard who can bring FAs here, and make Favors into a dunk machine.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 9, 2010 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
at MIKE
You just admitted that the Nets…
might not be able to trade T-Will for Brendon Bass.
No GM would be retarded enough to trade TWill for Bass, let alone to turn it down. As MrDollarBills said, all this nonsense about have less to do with him being a guy we desperately need and more about some people’s obsession with getting rid of TWill just for the sake of it.
that argument is probably a good one against hoarding space
since it’s likely if we’re just waiting for a big star to be available we’ll still be waiting 6-10 years down the road.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
If you look at McDyess's career before the knee injury
He didn’t really hit elite status until his sixth year, and he was a VERY good example of a dynamic PF athlete.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
McDyess
Put up 18/7 in year 2
20/11/2 in year 4
Year 6 was his last healthy year, and his best, but he certainly was a good player from the get go. After year 6, McDyess was a shell of his former self.
I hope Favors has the same learning curve, just not the injury.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
He made 3rd team ALL NBA in his 4th year, and his first Allstar game in his 6th year.
If you examine the level of player needed for a Championship run, even this level of achievement is not yet it.
And nobody was referring to McDyess after his injury.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
did you watch McDyess play through those first six years?
He was a force on the floor before hitting that 6th year.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 9, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
A trade Popsoal
Sice you are one of the few that would trade T-Will and thinks T-Will is going to get traded some on this site Fans think if someone is traded its going to be Lee and Hump how about they trade all three and Ross For the Hornet David West and Chris Paul
Devin Harris is well liked by Coach Johnson and is the teams only allstar not including Lopez A trade like this gives Proky his wish of getting a SuperStar player and not go empty handed this offseason Nets are unlikely to get a Superstar free agent thru free agency, thru the draft or maybe no other superstar thru a trade not named Chris Paul.
Why the Hornets would do it—They have a good point guard in Darren Collison with alot of skills that wont get much playing time, behind Chris Paul and is a whole lot cheaper they have young pieces like Thornton,Craig Brakins, Quincy Pondexter and Emaka Okafor add guys like Williams and Lee plus 4 picks next draft this allows them to cut into the salary cap something they have been serious about doing rather than winning now.
Noteable free agents in 2011 for NO David West(ETO),Peja Stojakavic,Daruis Songailia,James Posey(Buyout)
The Nets would have 4 allstars
Paul/Farmar/Vet
Harris/Morrow
Outlaw/James
WestFavors/May
Lopez/Petro
They have 14.9 million in cap equal to chris paul contract the players involved in the Nets have a salary of 7.9 million and West contract is 8.2 the salries match.
I can’t tell who is being traded for whom?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
oh.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to be, well, negative, but you forgot to throw in the “bag of balls” the nets are willing to give up as well.
I do like your creative thinking though.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, you are trading 1 top 5 player in the league, and 1 All Star for 4 guys who would not start on almost every team in the league… Would you do that if you were the Hornets?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ill throw in 2first to have that team 4 allstars all to guys with superstar potential not including Favors.
If you want to be more fair:
Lopez, Favors, Harris
for
Paul and West.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
And Why Would Paul Be Any Happier in NJ?
After they gut the team for him and have a worse supporting cast than what he has in NO?
When 2012 comes along, we would have given up Lopez, Favors and Harris for…. cap space. Great plan!
Paul / Farmar
C.Lee / Morrow
Outlaw / D.James
D.West / Humphries
Petro / Zoubek
That is much worse than what he had in NOH.
He would want out before he got here.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
And Why Would Paul Be Any Happier in NJ?
I agree. For that reason you cannot really bank on this kind of idea.
But you have to investigate it because an elite type of player like this does not go onto the market very often. And without this kind of player, no championship.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
But You Would Be Willing to Potentially Lose
Lopez
Favors
Harris
for nothing but more cap space in 2012?
I would say the chances that Paul left that mess of a line-up for NYC is a high probability.
I honestly don’t see the logic behind that.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
No. I was just trying to give the fellow that proposed a lopsided trade a better idea what a “fair” trade for Paul would look like.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
So What Would YOU
as GM of the Nets be willing to offer for Paul?
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I would be willing to offer Lopez, straight up. I don’t think the Hornets could get a better offer than that in the league.
This assuming that we can get an extension, and assuming that his knee checks out 100%.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 9, 2010 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I know. Why, I could never figure. If Paul is healthy there is no chance in the world Lopez would rise to the level of Paul’s greatness.
When it comes to getting C-level talent you have to sometimes give up very, very good players. Even young ones you love.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 9, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that was part of his point
but the reason he wants out is because of the financial problems and ownership issues, which the nets wouldn’t have anyway.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
That would be one difference. But I suspect he has Lebron-ides.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Kv
Chris Paul wants out now! But the Hornets aren’t going to give him his wish to picking what team he plays for he did’nt even mention the Nets. Nets have 15 million in cap and young assets no team is willing to take on okafor we put up the best package.
New Orleans management...
Should do what’s best for them and not for Chris Paul. Do you think Kidd wanted to come to the Nets? No way, but it worked out pretty nicely.
by ZR on Aug 8, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
But JJ25, there are other teams in the league. Its not the Nets vs nobody. Don’t you think that someone else can offer more than 4 non-starters for two of the best players in the league?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Its funny KV
You think I put out a package that the Hornets would reject most fans on this site think i put out a package the Nets would reject. So who is right?
We’ll wait and see.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Its a contridiction
Who is more believable You or Most of this site? In your opinion. I think it works out if you see it from my point of view they get two talented SG and Draft picks and shed salary and we get 2 stars and a chance to compete for a champion ship if Favors is really good.
eh I think most of the site seems pretty heavily influenced by the articles
because most of them change their tune like the wind. Half of them were saying we desperately needed to go after Lee/Boozer and was a travesty and complete failure on the part of the organization for not obtaining one…and now a few articles say Prokhy didn’t want them or w/e and suddenly they’re all on the they weren’t worth it bandwagon.
there’s an extreme amount of group think.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
there’s an extreme amount of group think.
Its funny, you step away for a bit and you see it. Glad to have you back in group think tank.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 9, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
excuse me...
..“Half of them were saying we desperately needed to go after Lee/Boozer”
If it meant bringing Lebron James in. After that was taken off of the table, the only folks that were clamoring to bring Lee in here were the folks who wanted to do something just for the sake of doing it.
There’s a set of differing opinions about what the Nets need to do on here…accusing folks of groupthink is offbase, imo.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Aug 9, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Hornets are not giving up Paul easily.
He still has two years on his contract and is one of the 2 best PGs in the league.
My concerns with Paul:
-His injury
-his desire to play with Amare and Melo for the NYK in 2012
-His diva like demands
I would much prefer D.Williams if Utah starts to go downhill and he wants out.
Either way to get Paul it’s probably going to take at a minimum:
Harris
T.Williams
GS’s #1
1 or more of our 1st rounders
Some 2nd rounder
$3m Cash
And if we’re not willing to give up Favors, then we will probably be forced to take Okafor, or at least Posey.
Personally I’m not sure Paul is worth the cost. If he simply leaves for NY in 2012, we’re out a lot of talent.
They are not going to want Harris back at 9 mill, they are trying to shed salary.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
They Have To Make Salaries Match For a Trade To Work
Those players listed (Harris and T.WIlliams) make less than Paul does.
Once they add in fillers like Okafor, Posey or Peja all the cap space is used up and the salary limits of the trade would be reached.
I’m also not saying this needs to be a 2 team trade. There are many scenarios out there.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
in which case they'd probably just say no to a trade
if the only way to make it work was to bring back Harris. because they’d barely be saving money and getting back an inferior player.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
They don’t have to make the salaries match at all. If you are losing salary you can always take on less salary as long as the other team can absorb it.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 8, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
KV Do you think this is more realsitic
3 way deal a deal that involves Chris Paul, Devin Harris, and Danny Granger makes sense for all three teams
Nets get:
Chris Paul
David West
Josh McRoberts
Why nets would do it — They want to make a splash this offseason and cant go empty handed as Proky said he wants a “Superstar through a trade”, it will clearly make them better and competitive for title run 1-5 years and it will back up the talk, Billboard a more.
Pacers get
Devin Harris
Julian Wright
Kris Humpries
Emaka Okafor
Why the pacers would do it — They have been looking for a play maker that not only can create a shot for himself but for his teammates. team high assist last season 3.5 by T.J. Ford. They have notified the Nets they are interested in Harris Services. Granger is a good player but not a play maker averaging 2.5 assist and he has the ball in his hands most of the game.They Drafted a Granger clone in Paul George with the 10th Pick. They also need a big.
Hornets Get:
Danny Granger
Troy Murphy
Terrence Williams
Picks
Why the Hornets would do it—They have a good point guard in Darren Collison with alot of skills that wont get much playing time, behind Chris Paul and is a whole lot cheaper they have young pieces like Thornton,Craig Brakins, Quincy Pondexter and Troy Muphy add guys like Williams and Granger plus 4 picks next draft this allows them to cut into the salary cap something they have been serious about doing rather than winning now.
Noteable free agents in 2011 for NO David West(ETO),Peja Stojakavic,Daruis Songailia,James Posey(Buyout)
I remember the Indiana triangle trade. Too many players in your version, but the Granger involvement is interesting because Okafor gets in play. But I don’t think that the Hornets get enough back unless they LOVE Granger, which I doubt.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 9, 2010 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
The Salaries have to Match to a Certain Extent or Fall within NJ's Cap Space Limit
In this case NJ can take on an extra $15m in salary thanks to their cap.
Paul makes about $15m.
Once they add in players like Okafor, Posey Peja, NOH can take full advantage of NJ’s cap situation.
I only listed Paul as the main component put referenced adding player like these to the deal.
Ultimately the deal would look like:
Paul
Lots of Salary (Okafor, Posey, Peja
for
Harris
T.Williams
Favors (? )
Several 1st round picks
Several 2nd round picks
$15m Trade Exception
Of course they would be saving money. That is half the reason they do a Paul trade, and most the reason NJ is an appealing option for the team.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Can we first see if CP3 can even play with the same explosion he once had?
Lets see how he does by the end of November. CP3 may no longer be worth what he once was. He might still be better than an Avery coached DHarris, but not by much anymore.
I doubt CP3 would be traded before next summer anyway. Why don’t we just forget about him and try to use the cap space to make the playoffs. Then he would be impressed.
I Agree.. I Don't Even Want to Trade For Him
But I think that is the type of offer it would take.
Again too many things going against CP3
-Coming off major injury
-Diva like demands
-Wants to go to NYK
-Wants to play with superstars
-2 years left on contract
-Would cost an arm and leg
-Would cripple us cap wise and force us to take players like Okafor.
Also, IMO the Nets biggest needs in order:
PF – until Favors is ready that is
SF
SG
PG
C
IMO an upgrade at PG is the 2nd least of our worries, and to pull even more assets at other positions to upgrade a position where we have a former AS and starting Finals PG, not to mention a 2 time champion back-up PG, does not make much sense to me. I’d almost rather target Melo and Granger.
by Jack Handy Jr on Aug 8, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions
YOU had me at Deron
That is what i am hoping for, a slow start for the Jazz and an unhappy Deron asking for a trade. I think Deron is less of a prima donna and is bigger than Paul and has a better outside game.
NO THANKS TO ANY TRADE NOW....
We are a young and Dynamic team with cap space and we only have to worry about Devin Harris’s ankle…..I’m willing to wait for one of our players or two or three to break out and be a Superstar……..Favors,James,TWILL ,etc…….And I’m not for trading Harris as of yet…I’m still remembering his 40 point games…..He’s alot better than he has been playing……….If Avery is a Chemist we will win 50 games this year…..GO NETS !!!!!!
by NetFan48 on Aug 8, 2010 9:08 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Not sure we will win 50 games, but I am with you. I don’t think we have to trade now unless something spectacular comes up. Its a brand new team and I have no idea how good they are going to be. But I like the path we are on, young and athletic and surrounded by quality staff. Let them have a crack and see how they go. Best thing is that if we stink, we still have options.
The starting lineup opening night should be:
Devin
Terrence
Outlaw
Favors
Brook
Eventually, Damion James can earn his way into the starting lineup as the sf by playing like he did in the summer league.
LETS GO NETS!
LOL Everyone loves T-will
Lee or Morrow will be in the starting lineup opening day. (Most likely lee)
Just play Favors already!
Didn’t you guys here Van Gundy say it doesn’t matter since the Heat will win 75 games and are practically unguardable. He was Mike & Mike this morning and broke down pretty much how there is no defense you can design to stop them. It was pretty convincing and scary. Maybe that’s why Van Gundy doesn’t want to get into coaching.
Anyway, since it’s all for naught for the next 5 years or until one of the big 3 in MIA gets injured, just start the kid.
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