NetsDaily Off-Season Report #16
In our latest Off-Season report, we look at Mikhail Prokhorov's belief that he can turn the Nets into a billion dollar franchise, evaluate the off-season with a positive spin, review Billy King's draft record, ask if the Nets are the youngest team ever (No, but close), explain our panic on the train and in general have a lot of fun with numbers.
Every Sunday, we’ll be updating the Nets’ off-season with bits and pieces of information, gossip, etc. to help take the edge off missing the playoffs, relying on the Nets’ beat reporters and others who have slipped interesting stuff into larger stories and blogs...not to mention our own reporting.
Going for a Billion
Perhaps it got lost in translation or perhaps Mikhail Prokhorov confused things by failing to note that when he talks about his investment in the Nets, he's talking about his investement in the Nets, Barclays Center and Atlantic Yards.
No matter. While some may laugh at his contention that "the Nets" will be worth $1 billion in 2015,no one should rule out the possibility that his $200 million investment will balloon to $1 billion in five years. In fact, one can see
how it could easily happen.
Let's first break down what Prokhorov has already laid out. There's the $200 million "purchase price". It actually represents a small part of what he has invested. In addition to the $200 million, he agreed to 1) assume 80% of the
team's debt, which amounts to about $175 million; eat up to $60 million in losses while the team is still in New Jersey; and provide $76 million in financing for the arena infrastructure, for which Bruce Ratner couldn't get investment grade financing. That's a little more than a half-billion dollars. In addition, he's agreed to pay $4 million to break the Nets' lease on the IZOD, permitting the team's move the Newark. What's he get in return: 80% of the Nets and 45% of Barclays Center which at $1 billion will be the most expensive arena ever built in the world, and an option to buy up to 20% of the overall Atlantic Yards project, valued at more than $6 billion.
And as Billy May used to say, "Wait there's more!" Much more in fact. Under his deal with Ratner, Prokhorov agreed to provide stop-gap funding if Ratner needs it during the arena construction...but for a price. If there are financing
shortfalls, Prokhorov will step in, but in return gets the right to convert debt to equity, meaning he can raise his stake in the (billion dollar) arena to 80%. All that is according to a Standard and Poor's analysis of the project, as
reported by Norman Oder's Atlantic Yards Report. A team insider confirms all that and notes the possible loss of the arena doesn't matter much to Ratner, since Ratner's main interest all along has been the residential and office space that will fill out the rest of the 22-acre site at Atlantic and Flatbush avenues.
And what about that 20% option in the overall project? The details of that agreement have never been revealed but a respected Russian financial publication has reported that Prokhorov can exercise that option for another $120 million. Remember, we are talking about a project with a $6 billion price tag.
So let's forward to 2015. Is it indeed possible for Prokhorov to have a billion dollar return on that initial $200 million investment? By then the arena will have been open for three years and Atlantic Yards should be well on its way; the team's bottom line will have improved with 1) the lack of an onerous arena lease, 2) new collective bargaining agreement that reduces costs, 3) a new national TV contract, and 4) a new local TV contract that will dramatically
improving on the current YES deal. Any improvement in the team's fortunes is also likely to have an effect, particularly if Prokhorov has invested big buck on the product.
Getting to a billion dollars on his New York/Nets investment shouldn't be that difficult, in spite of the skeptics.
Bottom line: Prokhorov's stock in trade has been buying distressed assets at a bargain basement price and then investing in them. In Russia, as a result to that strategy, he was able to buy half of a media company that in addition to owning newspaper and television assets, controls 21% of all the internet domain names in Russia; the country's leading investment banking company; and increasingly large percentages in the country's biggest gold, aluminum and once again nickel mining operations. Now, he is branching out to build Russia's first hybrid car (an investment of $150 million) and a giant resort complex in Turkey ($100 million), among many other things. He may at some point become overextended--he told beat reporters he is spending 85% of his time recently on the Nets, but right now, he's riding high and fully confident. That billion dollar claim isn't smoke and mirrors. He didn't do it for jollies. It's part of a plan.
The Optimist's Guide to the Nets Off-Season
We remain blissfully optimistic about the future. We're two-thirds through the off-season and we have had to read through pundits and bloggers assessments of the Nets' woes. The Nets are among the off-season's biggest losers, they say and they write. Well, maybe, but we disagree. Then again, we were never optimistic about LeBron James coming to New Jersey. Hopeful, sure. Optimistic, No. (We may have said that before. Just put it down as we protesteth too much).
Still, when you put it all together, we like what the team has done, and feel compelled to go piece by piece in explaining ourselves.
The coach: Avery Johnson. Rod Thorn wanted a teacher and he got one. As we explained last week, Johnson has a very, very good record developing young players. It doesn't hurt that he also has the best winning percentage among NBA coaches ever. Picking two former head coaches as assistants is not something new head coaches often do, particularly since both are young and one of them, Sam Mitchell, is a former coach of the year. That takes a lot of confidence and we like that. We also liked the loyalty inherent in bringing in Popeye Jones, who worked with a lot of those young Dallas players, and the two Nets' holdovers, John Loyer and Tom Barrise. (Counting Barrise's 0-2 record as an interim head coach and Loyer's one game fill-in for a grief-stricken Kiki Vandeweghe, the only Nets assistant without head coaching experience is Jones).
The draft: Derrick Favors and Damion James. The Favors-Cousins debate is over. May they both have great careers and since Cousins will only come to Prudential and Barclays once a year, that's a good thing. In the summer league, Favors got better as he went along, Cousins got worse...and now we know Favors had an additional burden in the form of a packet of material from his biological father, his first ever communication. Avery may have gone overboard comparing Favors to, on various occasions, Dwight Howard, Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan (why not Bill Russell?) but the kid is just what the team needs. As for James, who knew this kid had hidden within him, "a scoring machine", as David Thorpe described him. What's missed a bit in assessments of his game is HIS extraordinary athleticism.
The "third round": In the last mock drafts posted in the hour before the draft, Brian Zoubek was listed at #38 by Draft Express, #48 by ESPN and #55 by NBADraft.net. The morning after the draft, Jonathan Givony of Draft Express listed
all the players who he was surprised hadn't been taken 1 through 60. Zoubek was a the top of the list. Why not? In recent NCAA history, only one player had a better offensive rebounding percentage than Zoubek: DeJuan Blair, who the Nets passed on last year. Ben Uzoh had been all over the mocks before slipping out of all but one--ESPN's--at the end. Chad Ford had him at #53. Still, he could wind up as the third point guard. And again, the Nets are the one of only two teams to give partially guaranteed deals to undrafted players...the other being the Warriors who signed Jeremy Lin out of Harvard. That's a good sign.
Free agency: First off, we consider claims that the Nets overspent on role players a bunch of baloney. How can you be accused of overpaying when you haven't yet reached the NBA salary minimum yet for next season? The Nets failed to find a star (and with all the uncertainty and a 12-70 record staring agents and stars in their face...who could be surprised) So they went out and built a rotation...a young, athletic and hungry rotation. They also filled in some empty spaces. Travis Outlaw is the small forward, a job handled (and poorly) by committee the last two years. Jordan Farmar is a healthy (and sane) backup point guard who is HIGHLY competitive and has two NBA championship rings. Anthony Morrow is just want the team needed last year: someone who can come into a game and light it up from outside...and know this, Morrow is not just a three point shooter. He can and does find the rim in a lot of different ways...and anyone who has read his tweets knows he is highly competitive and motivated. Johan Petro will replace Josh Boone and Tony Battie at back up center.
The Morrow and Farmar signings haven't been controversial, particularly since Farmar has a player option in the third year, thus reducing the Nets commitment to him. Outlaw and Petro, however, are treated like highwaymen, robbing the small town bank and riding off into the sunset. Really. The Nets don't have the MLE or LLE this summer because those exceptions are only available to a team under the cap. Would there be as much bellyaching if the Nets had given Outlaw the MLE and LLE? Because basically, all they got was a bit more. Outlaw is a bit like Farmar in one aspect: he has never played in a system where his greatest talents have been fully utilized. Outlaw is a player who should flourish on the open floor, in an uptempo game, just as Farmar should in a system that isn't the triangle. Portland never played an uptempo game. They are always among the leaders in fewest possessions per game. Nate McMillan likes his slow paced game. One NetsDaily fan theorized on what Outlaw might do in an uptempo game as a starter, comparing him to Rudy Gay on a per minute basis. It was optimistic but had some validity...and Outlaw does something Gay does not: play defense.
Petro, along with Outlaw, has gotten the most grief from fans and pundits alike...$10 million for a center who almost returned to Europe before filling in for Kenyon Martin at season's end in Denver!? Petro, we think, has potential--we
did have good seats for the best game of his career at IZOD and really, everyone overpays for big men. And the reaction to his signing pointed up the difference between Nets fans, who waver between skeptical and cynical, and Knicks fans who waver between hopeful and delusional. Knicks fans, you see, think signing an obscure 24-year-old Russian seven-footer for $10 million over three years is a brilliant long-term investment while Net fans think signing a journeyman 24-year-old French seven footer for $10 million over three years is overpaying. Mozgov averaged 7.5 points, 4.8 rebounds and 1 block in 18.9 minutes per game in Russia. Petro averaged Petro averaged 3.4 points and 3.6 rebounds for Denver in 12 minutes per game in the NBA, where he has started 120 games.
Bottom line: the Nets have committed just about $76 million to the eight players they've signed this summer: $35 million over five years to Outlaw; $12 million over three years to Morrow; $10 million over three years to Petro; $8,576,640 over two years to Favors (with two more years at $10,761,516 at the team's option); $7.75 million over two years to Farmar (with a player option for another $4.25 million in the third year); $2.3994 million over two years to James (with two more years at $3,655,400 at the team option) and whatever partial guarantees given Zoubek and Uzoh on their one-year $473,604 deals. By comparison, the Bulls agreed to pay Carlos Boozer $80 million over five years. We're not saying we'd rather have those eight than Boozer--or some combination with Boozer. We're saying the argument that the Nets overpaid doesn't hold up. None of those guys are over 25 years old. Five are 23 or younger. They're small short term investments in comparison to all the megadeals of the summer. If they don't work out, they're not a big deal. As Mikhail Prokhorov says, he is happy the Nets haven't "splurged" on anyone...at least yet.
The GM...and assistant GM: the signing of Billy King has gotten a lot of heat from pundits. Did he overpay for mediocre players? Yes. Was he impatient with coaches, at one point paying three of them? Yes. Did he trade for an aging, infirm Chris Webber, screwing up his cap space and whatever chemistry the Sixers had left? Yes. And most of all, did he hang on to Allen Iverson longer than he should have? Sure thing. To be sure, he bears a lot of responsibility for those moves, although the last one seems to have been an ownership issue. Of course, he also knew when to dump Dikembe Mutombo on the Nets, understanding rule changes would limit his effectiveness and make his contract a joke. He didn't have to buy out Mutombo. Rod Thorn did. And he did leave his successor, Ed Stefanski with a lot of cap space that Stefanski then splurged on Elton Brand? Yes. As the next segment will show, he did very well at the draft...and Larry Brown recently endorsed his team-building in the late 1990's, signing and trading for defensive types to bolster Iverson. As for those who complain the Nets never even talked to Kevin Pritchard...why is Pritchard sill unemployed and likely to remain so on October 1? As for Bobby Marks, whatever management capability the Nets retained during the final days of the Ratner era were to his credit...maintaining the cap space, organizing the data for the draft and free agency all the while retaining that least valued of management strengths: institutional memory. We're willing to give both of them their chance.
A couple of things disturbed us during the off-season: giving up Chris Douglas-Roberts and Yi Jianlian for the Bulls 2012 second rounder and sending Yi Jianlian and $3 million to the Wizards for Quinton Ross were risks...and they didn't pan out. If the Nets get to use their $14.95 million cache of cap space, then it might have been worth it. But will there be any opportunities?
King Feels the Draft
We're a bit mystified about the conventional wisdom that Billy King doesn't have a good eye for talent, that his drafts were lacklustre.
Every GM makes mistakes in the draft, of course, even Joe Dumars, but a review of King's time in Philly indicates that King did well when picking in the lottery, found solid NBA players at the end of the first round and discovered value deep into the second. He also signed at least one undrafted player who became a top-notch defender.
As one of his former players in Philly, Eric Snow, told Al Iannazzone this week, "He’s got a great feel for the unseen."
So, let us review…an incomplete but telling list:
—1999: drafted Todd MacCulloch with the 47th pick.
—2000: drafted Speedy Claxton with the 20th pick.
—2001: drafted Samuel Dalembert with the 26th pick.
—2002: traded guard Speedy Claxton to the Spurs for Mark Bryant and the draft rights to John Salmons, taken with the 26th pick.
—2003: bought the Nets' second round pick, the 51st pick, and used it on Kyle Korver. Cost: $140,000; Traded the draft rights to guard Paccelis Morlende to the Sonics for the draft rights to Willie Green, taken at #41.
—2004: drafted Andre Iguodala with the 9th pick.
—2005: drafted Louis Williams with the 45th pick.
—2006: drafted guard Thabo Sefolosha (13th pick), then traded his draft rights to the Chicago Bulls for the draft rights to guard Rodney Carney.
—2007: drafted Thaddeus Young (12th overall pick), Daequan Cook (21st overall pick), then traded the draft rights to Cook, a 2009 second-round pick and cash to the Miami Heat for the draft rights to Jason Smith, taken with the 20th pick.
A GM who can find any value after #40 (MacColluch, Green, Korver and Williams...Korver and Greene in the same draft); get solid NBA talents in the late first round (Claxton, Dalembert, Salmons); and use lottery picks to get players like Iguodala and Young deserves respect.
To suggest that Iguodala and Young were no-brainers ignores what other teams around his pick wound up with. Iguodala was taken between Rafael Araujo and Luke Jackson; Young was taken between Acie Law and Julian Wright. Same with his second round gem, Louis Williams. Williams was taken after Roko-Leni Uric, Chris Taft, Mile Ilic and Martynas Andriuskevicius. Of all those players only Julian Wright is currently under contract in the NBA.
He may have made some mistakes in the draft and certainly in other areas--like doling out mega contracts to mediocre players, but in the critical (to the Nets) area of getting value for late first and second round picks—and not blowing high lottery picks, few have a better record...and that includes the guy who hired him.
Youngest, tallest ever?
The Nets are young, but they are not going to be the NBA's youngest ever. They could be in the top five, however. The two youngest teams in league history were the 2000-01 Chicago Bulls and 1953-54 Baltimore Bullets, both at around 22.9 years old. Those teams won 15 and 16 games, respectively. The third youngest should give Nets fans some hope. The 2008-09 Trailblazers averaged 23.8 years old...and won 54 games. The fourth youngest, apparently, was the 2006-07 Celtic team that won only 24, roughly the same age as the roster. The Nets current roster, with 12 guaranteeed contracts and two partially guaranteed deals, is right round 23.6.
No matter where they stand in league history, This year's team is certain to be the youngest in franchise history. Derrick Favors will be the youngest Nets player ever at 19 years, 3 months and 1 week on opening night. He'll also be the youngest player in the league this year.
They also could also be the best three point shooting team in franchise history, with no fewer than six players capable of hitting between 35 and 45 per cent of their shots from deep: Anthony Morrow, Jordan Farmar, Courtney Lee, Travis Outlaw, QUinton Ross, Damion James, even Devin Harris...during a good year.
It's possible they will also be among the franchise's tallest ever ...particularly if you exempt the seasons where the team had one super tall player in Shawn Bradley or Gheorge Muresan.
Brian Zoubek is listed at 7'1" and truth be told, so should Johan Petro and Brook Lopez. Back in 2005, when he was drafted, Petro was listed at 7'1" with a 7'2 1/2" wingspan at the Eurocamp in Treviso, Italy. He's listed at 7'0" now. We don't know why. We don't think he's shrunk and he certainly towered over his newest teammates earlier this month. Lopez was listed at 7'0 1/2" when he was measured at the Pre-Draft camp in Orlando two years ago. Maybe he's trying to look "less tall" as his boss says he does. (The Nets did have four seven footers in 2006-07 in Nenad Krstic, Jason Collins, Mikki Moore and Mile Ilic...but one of them was Mile Ilic.) After that, there's 6'10 1/2" and maybe still
growing Derrick Favors; two guys at 6'9"--Travis Outlaw and Kris Humphries; 6'8" (actually 6'7 3/4" as measured) Damion James; and four guys between 6'5" and 6'6": Terrence Williams, Quinton Ross, Courtney Lee and Anthony Morrow. Devin Harris, Ben Uzoh and Jordan Farmar, all around 6'3" fill out the roster.
Power Forwards for Sale?
Last week, we listed a few point guards who we thought the Nets would be interested in if they are indeed going for "glue guys". This week, we're going to take a look at a couple of young power forwards who play for teams that appear to have decided to go in a different direction, leaving these guys available. In both cases, their teams have to be thinking about the luxury tax and may not need a player in return.
Ersan Ilyasova is a 6'9" combo forward who is bulking up this summer in hopes of moving from SF to PF. His team, however, seems to have decided there isn't a lot of room for him on the court at either forward position. The Bucks have gone out and signed Drew Gooden, drafted Larry Sanders and traded for both John Brockman and Corey Maggette. Since they already had Richard Mbah a Moute and Carlos Deflino, doesn't seem to be a lot of room for Ilyasova, something the Buck beat writers have suggested. He makes $2.32 million this season and $2.54 million next season, but only $400,000 is guaranteed.
Dave D'Alessandro has mentioned Ilyasova as someone the Nets might be interested in. He certainly has potential...at least on the offensive end. He hit 89 three pointers last year from the forward position and is quite athletic. He also grew up in the Soviet Union (hint) but now plays for the Turkish National Team.
The second player out there is Brandon Bass of the Magic. Bass, at 6'8", is a power forward...period. He's being paid $4 million over each of the next three years, making him a bit more expensive. Bass thrived under Avery Johnson, but has done nothing before or since Dallas. He averaged 8.4 ppg and 4.5 rpg in 19 minutes a game over 160 games in Dallas. But after signing a $16 million deal with the Magic, Bass played in only 50 games for the Magic, averaging 5.8 ppg in only 13 minutes a game. The Magic are way over the luxury tax and don't seem to have much love for Bass, focusing instead on Ryan Anderson as their backup 4.
Final Note
We got quite a fright last week on the train. As we scrolled through our Twitter feed, the following came up: "Sussman says goodbye..." WHAT?, this can't be! It's taking that "All New" thing too far!! It's an outrage!!! Well,
as it turned out, as we frantically opened the tweet, we learned the full message was "Sussman says goodbye to Thorn". Whew. The Sez is one of the few anchors left on this ship. Can't just throw him overboard. (Are we mixing
metaphors? No problem. He'll let us know.)
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i wouldn't mind
snagging Ilyasova and calling it an off-season
imagine something extremely witty here
I wouldn't mind as well but
whats the cost T-Will I dont know how fans on this site will react to that if Charlie V had a reasonable contract I would consider him he is a guy that can score 25 points in a quarter as he has done it before. Or Chris Wilcox and Jason Maxiell.
Come on Net Income Bass is going to start this year in Orlando and Rasahrd is going to play Small Forward according to an interview with Van Gundy recently done by Yahoo sports
ur right he might not be available
after not resigning matt barnes
"I want to win, I want the team to win and I'm in complete control."
-Coach Avery Johnson.
no he isnt
He is going to get “more time”, not start. Also, there have been reports that Ryan Anderson has bulked up to play more PF.
Moreover, LAST WEEK, Bass asked to be traded if he didn’t get more time.
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/07/20/brandon-bass-expecting-either-bigger-role-or-new-team-next-seaso/
It would have been perfect to have traded Yi for Anderson.
I would rather have Anderson than Bass at this point, as he would be cheaper and fit in better, and he has more upside, besides playing well with Brook.
fills a number of voids.
adds to the three point shooting depth, adds to the athleticism, gives you another young player and since they are still pushing for the global brand, gives you another international player.
I'm all in!!!
I dig the kid 23 now and turning heads since he was 17. He would be perfect. If he added at least 10 pounds to the 6’9 235 frame I would say get err done!!! Can we get him for picks? He could start now and actually complement Favors very well in the long run off the bench. We still got that #7 available. Love how he moves love the quick smooth stroke and he doesn’t play scared.
Second unit of
FARMAR
MORROW
JAMES
ILYasova
PETRO
Can shoot us back into games where we come out flat. They defintely will be exciting.
The NETS are coming!
Either Bass or Ilyasova would be good
If we dont have to give anything other then drafts and/or cash up for them.
+1
I liked Bass for that last roster vacancy but if it is true Ilyasova is available then let’s go after him…he is a better Yi whom we lost and is a legitimate stretch 4…Outlaw is too much of a 3…
by jirohkanzaki on Jul 31, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Our FA
So are we totally done with guys like Josh Boone, Bobby Simmons and Jarvis Hayes all together then?
I also hope we keep those other two rookies that didn’t get drafted. They could come in handy and are cheap.
T. James
by Byrdsman13 on Jul 31, 2010 5:55 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
they've given up their numbers
Farmar has Boone’s #2; Outlaw has Simmons’ #21, Morrow has Hayes’ #22.
There is no reason to be upset about losing Yi or CDR for nothing
Both were completely useless players that were detrimental to the team. If either of them are in the NBA in 3 years it will be incredible.
neither were useless
the question is whether they were completely flawed, aka irretrievable or worth the money the Nets saved in cap space. Won’t know for a while, til they play this season…and til the Nets use that cap space.
in the NBA in 3 years
Here’s a bottle of the good stuff that says they are both still playing in the nba in 3 years.
y didnt we sign tweety carter over uzoh?
carter was way better played 8min less than uzoh and was more productive.
and is also 6'3"
and big across. they like that.
his chances of making the team are limited if they go out, as suggested, and find a veteran PG.
Yeah I'm still wondering where that Veteran Presence will fit
I guess PG or PF only spots available, I like Uzohs upside as well shot better than I thought he could.
That's 6'3" WITHOUT shoes so if you go by how the NBA lists players' heights then...
Uzoh is 6’4"…..also has a 6’9" wingspan…
by jirohkanzaki on Jul 31, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Nets aren't done yet
With 12 guaranteed deals and two partials, they are still at least one short of a full roster. Don’t know what the Zoubek or Uzoh deals say about when their contracts become fully guaranteed, but that could be October or it could be January.
The Nets usually have 20 players in training camp. With the team going to China, you can be sure they will have 20 with a lengthy training camp and a grueling travel schedule during preseason.
No doubt they have had some players in for tryouts. We know of one: Qyntel Woods. Got to be others.
Sounds promising.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Jul 31, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Whats this about a new TV contract? Anything there or is it just assumed?
Also… this anti Knick sentiment is REALLY annoying. To single them out, any only them, constantly is a VERY Boston Red Sox outlook.
… this anti Knick sentiment"
I’ve been a knick fan, for a long time, 25 years ago. I still root for the nix vs most other teams. But I am very excited about Knicks vs Nets. Making the playofffs is a goal this season sure but I especially want to win 10 games more than the ’bokkers. I want a big exciting war between these rivals.
The Nets contract with YES
extends through 2013. It is viewed by the team as a bad deal. It was signed by Ratner after he bought the team from the old ownership…which also had a big stake in YES.
The Nets get about $10 million from YES, about half of what the team thinks it should receive. I am told the final year, there is a clause in the contract which permits the Nets to seek arbitration to determine if the contract is fair. That of course would coincide with the move to Brooklyn.
TV Contract
If/when the Nets are good again and in Brooklyn when the YES contract expires – who would be competing for the rights?
by nets-fan-in-ct on Aug 1, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Rebounding
The roster as is, needs some rebounder bad. We all know Brook isn’t a great rebounder, knor is Petro. We can hope Favors does good but the team will have to do it as a unit.
Realy hope Favors shows some flashs of Dwight Howard.
Good read overall
But I cringe when I read stuff like extrodinary athleticism of Damion James and Rudy Gay doesn’y play defense. I think you could tone down some of the hyperbole and exclude from bashing players that New Jersey wanted , but couldn’t get. Put is this way , if we landed Gay instead , what would you have wrote?
I do like Ilyosova as a backup 3 this year (some 4 – better rebounder and post defender than Outlaw) , and a backup 4 for the future to Favors to bring scoring and energy ….. but I’m not sure they’d give him up unless they get something substantial. He’s too good just to let go for a scrub or a second round pick. Bass for Hump wouldn’t be a bad idea. Bass seems like he would do better as a starter than Hump. But it wouldn’t be a significant upgrade.
James athleticism and Gay's defense
At the Pre-Draft combine in Orlando, James finished 10th in the 3/4 court sprint—and was first among players taller than 6’7". In the lane agility drill, he finished 4th among all participants …5/100ths of a second behind first place John Wall, again finishing first among players taller than 6’7". His vertical leap ranked 20th among the 60 participants, a no-step of 29.0". The two highest were 32.0" by Wesley Johnson and 31.5" by Derrick Favors. Wall’s was 30". Several of those who finished between Favors and James didn’t get drafted.
His strength, the number of time he could bench press 185 pounds, ranked 16th.
As for Gay’s defense, a sophisticated NBA analysis of league defensive stats noted last September “If you were wondering why, despite all his talent, Rudy Gay didn’t get a big contract extension this summer, wonder no more. By this measure, he was the worst defender in the league last season, No. 246 of 246 guys who logged at least 1,000 minutes.”
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/john_schuhmann/11/19/numbersgame.battier/index.html
There is no hyperbole. It’s called research. Cringe less.
A small slice of a draft combine workout does not extrodinary athleticism make. And that graph is based on team defense , a lot of variables come into play there. Gay plays solid defense. To think that he doesn’t play D based on that is absurd and narrow-minded. I don’t think a cringed less , I might have cringed more on that one.
by strange-brew on Jul 31, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I already knew about a lot of that stuff about James , and it doesn’t make me think he has extrodinary athleticism. Atlectic ability , sure …… “extrodnary” athleticism , nah.
And the Gay thing , well ….. that was a stretch.
by strange-brew on Jul 31, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
More on James' athleticism
“He has great physical tools with his length, strength, and great athleticism, all things he makes great use in transition, breaking up plays from the weakside, and by rushing out to contest perimeter shots.”
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Damion-James-1074/#ixzz0vJWgPWEw
“If a player was judged by the sum of his parts, James would be at the top of most team’s draft boards. It seems requisite for any analysis to mention how much teams love his athleticism and his motor (one of our favorite draft buzzwords). Then comes the “but …” No one seems to know where James will play at the next level, or at least if he’ll be able to excel as a big 3 or undersized 4. "
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4675379/draft-profile-damion-james
“Well-built forward oozing with athleticism and agility … Exhibits superb fluidity of movement, running the floor like a guard (3.09 sprint at pre-draft combine) and quick to the basketball.”“A tough, physical forward, James boasts an NBA body and brings explosive leaping ability and athleticism. That, along with his high-energy style of play, make him an outstanding offensive rebounder, as he grabbed more than 100 offensive boards each of his last three seasons.”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/2010/draft/players/60087.html#ixzz0vJYuT8rd
* Super-tough, physical forward
* Long arms, NBA body
* Good athlete with some explosive leaping ability
* Good offensive rebounder
* Dramatically improved perimeter game
* Some range on his long ball
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft/results/players/_/id/19251/damion-james
I would do the same on Gay’s poor athleticism, but it is so well-known as to be a given.
You think we pull this stuff out of thin air?
I would do the same on Gay’s poor athleticism, but it is so well-known as to be a given.
Rudy Gay Pre-draft: Max Vert: 40.5
Damion James Pre-draft: Max Vert 33
Rudy Gay Pre-draft: No step Vert: 33
Damion James Pre-draft: No step Vert 29
Rudy Gay Pre-draft: Lane Agility 11.03
Damion James Pre-draft: Lane Agility 10.89
Sprint: 3.32
Sprint:: 3:20
James: 6’6.25 no shoes
Gay: 6’7" no shoes
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
You never know, what “we” thinks:
You think we pull this stuff out of thin air?
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 1, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Other “extra ordinary athletes” who have measured as James has of similar size:
Sprint:
Dante Green (08), Ryan Humphrey (02), Chris Porter (00), Souleymane Camara (03), James Jones (03), Erik Daniels (04), Nik Caner-Medley (06)
Agility:
Bobby Jones (06), Rick Anderson (03), Donte Green (08), James Johnson (09), George Williams (02).
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
The stat is a bit bogus. Durant is listed as third worse. He actually is a pretty good defender, and even gave Kobe serious problems in the playoffs. And Rose is put in the bottom ten as well. The notion that Ray was not pursued because of his +9.9 differential, would then lead to the notion that Durant if he was a FA wouldn’t get a huge contract because of his +8.5, which is absolutely ridiculous.
On and off court differentials are notoriously misleading as they deal with all kinds of team dynamic factors that have little do with with personal defense. This isn’t to say that Gay is a great defender, only that your proof of it is highly flawed.
For instance, by another metric, differential by position, Gay in 2008-9 actually out performed his counterpart at SF by a +1.3 PER* and even out performed his counterpart at PF as well, when he spent time there here. And in 2009-10 at a 1.9 PER* . This could be attributed by his offensive prowess, but not if he was the worst defender in the league. He would be turning regular players into superstars.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Jul 31, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
not “Ray”, “Gay”
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Jul 31, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Glad you cleared that up.
Durant is the third worst defender in the league, Deron Williams the fourth worst, and Derrick Rose the 7th worst. Nice stat, highly realistic. Its a wonder that so many people consider these guys to be among the best players in the league.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 1, 2010 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Add to that, Lamar Odom is the 4th best defender in the league????
All you have to do is open your eyes and see that that is a joke.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 1, 2010 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions
WOW u WERE right. Good research!!!!
T. James
by Byrdsman13 on Aug 1, 2010 2:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
NO WAY I'm doing a sideways trade for a longer contract.
Besides, Hump was more productive that Bass last year.
Hump is tougher and plays bigger that Bass.
If Nets didn’t already have Hump I might want Bass, as I did 1 year ago.
Illyasova and Ryan Anderson better complement what the Nets have already.
He is washed up and ready to go home
The only players to consider are Almundson and Singleton (Free Agents)
You can also consider Chris Wilcox, Jason Maxiell, James Johnson, Chuck Hayes, Darell Arthur, Jason Smith, Leon Powe. D.J. White, Joey Dorsey or Renaldo Balkman<is playing for the P.R. team right now.I can’t think of any other player without giving something significant.
Jared Jefferies and Reggie Evans<only if bought out 6+ Million each.
I remember the hype on this site on trying to aquire the All Star D-leaguer Alexander Johnson he could be bought out to make room for Scola.
That why Im saying nets are going to move someone not because I want to leave T-Will or C-Lee leave but because they are deep at that position and are not going to make the playoffs with the Power Forwards they have unless Favors is good his first year.
The Nets arent going to waste $6+ million on Jeffries
when Boone is basically the same player and has the advantage of having played for the Nets.
why not resign boone?
he and brook can play together
"I want to win, I want the team to win and I'm in complete control."
-Coach Avery Johnson.
Net Income
My comment says only if bought out meaning pick them up if they are bought out and signed them for the Vets Min.
NI...
You misspelled “piece” and It’s Damion JAMES not Jones. Just a heads up.
Thanks for the great read though.
" I'm really excited to take the worst team in the league and turn it to be the best in the league." --Mikhail Prokhorov.
Youngest rosters
As of now, the Timberwolves are a shade younger than the Nets at 23.5, and that’s before the likely release of 27 year old Delonte West. Of course, they’re going to be horrible. Just saying.
LOLLLL WHAT A JOKE
And the reaction to his signing pointed up the difference between Nets fans, who waver between skeptical and cynical, and Knicks fans who waver between hopeful and delusional. Knicks fans, you see, think signing an obscure 24-year-old Russian seven-footer for $10 million over three years is a brilliant long-term investment while Net fans think signing a journeyman 24-year-old French seven footer for $10 million over three years is overpaying. Mozgov averaged 7.5 points, 4.8 rebounds and 1 block in 18.9 minutes per game in Russia. Petro averaged Petro averaged 3.4 points and 3.6 rebounds for Denver in 12 minutes per game in the NBA, where he has started 120 games.
MOSGOVS CONTRACT IS ONLY GUARNTEED FOR ONE YEAR. PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. THANK YOU BEFORE U HATE ON THE TEAM THAT PLAYS IN THE WOLRD’S MOST FAMOUS ARENA!
I've been looking into Illyasova and can't find evidence of him growing up in Russia, even if he does have a Russian name.
It says he was born in Turkey and family is from Turkey.
He is listed as 6’10" everywhere, not 6’9".
http://www.nba.com/bucks/roster/bucks_roster_ersan_ilyasova.html
http://www.nba.com/bucks/roster/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ersan_%C4%B0lyasova
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ersan_ilyasova/career_stats.html
Why would Bucks be getting new players for his position if they really like him?
Would Nets be will to give up the Warriors 1-7 protected pick for 2012 to get him? With DLee there, chances are Warriors will be close to a playoff team in 2012.
If Nets prefer Illyasova to Bass, they should be willing to pay more, as long as they don’t give up necessary players for him.
Nets fans certainly will not part with TWill to get Illyasova.
Nets have a poor recent history of trading with Milwaukee including Yi, CDR and missing out on Tiny Gallon. Hope that would change with Illyasova.
call me crazy
and i don’t want to rehash the trade/don’t trade Twill discussion. but thinking about all of the 3 point shooters we have now, and the style we might play, there’s going to be a lot of long rebounds. meaning that our 4’s and 5’s might not be getting a ton of offensive boards. i could see Twill really showing his worth with his rebounding and tenacity- especially after missed threes. we’re going to need a ball hound- Twill is our best
imagine something extremely witty here
Especially when he’s rebounding his own bricks from distance!
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 1, 2010 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Where did I say he grew up in Russia?
he grew up in Tajikistan, a constituent republic of the old Soviet Union.
I had heard
his true name is Arsen Ilyasov and that he’s actually 2 or 3 years older than what he says he is (like Yi, LOL).
indeed that is true
the part about him possibly being two or three years older…his background is quite murky. He said that he was born in Tajikistan (north of Afghanistan) before he was drafted but lately he has said he was born in Turkey.
Well if Nets are intact with Bucks for Ilyasova, I hope they are smart enough this time, to get Bucks to lower their demands because of his true age.
If Ilyasova is really older, he may have peaked, and could be the reason they are ready to trade him. In that case, I’m not sure he is worth the Warriors 1-7 protected 2012 pick (probably #8-#15).
Nets should “Fear The Deer” as they have a bad recent record in the trade department.
You wrote "he also grew up in the Soviet Union (hint)". I now realize you were referring to Tajikistan (former Soviet Union), which is a long way from Turkey.
If he really was born in Tajikistan in 1987 (or lets say 1984 like Yi ??), he should speak some Russian. Does he speak any Russian?
Also, it makes sense that his name would be Ilyasov, not the feminine Ilyasova.
This guys’ background needs to be checked out and I’m sure Proky has people, who know people who can dig up the facts.
Maybe Milwaukee found out about his true age and now want to unload their 2nd over-aged pretender. " Beware The Deer".
I wouldn’t be surprise if the Bucks also outbid the Nets to pickup Dooling last week (Dooling could have been that Vet. player Avery would have liked.
I found this from DX
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Ersan-Ilyasova,-the-Turkish-pearl-82/
The most spread theory says that Ülker Istanbul brought in a guy called Arsen Ilyasov born in 1984 from Uzbekistan and organized a Turkish passport for him, changing his name to Ersan Ilyasova while reducing his age by three years in the process.
The fact is that Arsen Ilyasov crossed the border on August 7, 2002, but never showed up again. On September 19, 2002, a man named Semsettin Bulut told the Turkish authorities that he had forgotten to register his fifteen-year-old son, and so he registered him as Ersan Ilyasova. A long investigation held by the Turkish authorities showed that there wasn’t any previous data about the kid in their files.
Good find. Since Uzbekistan (not Tajikistan) had been fighting to get Ilyasov, those rumors seem quite valid.
Only a fool would believe he was born in 1987. If born in 1984, he would have just turned 26. He should be considered to be 26 if Nets enter into negotiations with Bucks.
And speaking of false identities, your same article shows that Yi is now officially considered by Draftexpress to be born in 1984 (not 1987), meaning he will turn 26 this October. Now we don’t have to use an asterisk when citing Yi’s age. Yi is 25. Nets fans will be pleased that they didn’t lose much.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Yi-Jianlian-44/
Great read
Just one thing
Dave D’Alessandro has mentioned Ilyasova as someone the Nets might be interested in.
Not exactly. It was his idea and he actually said he had no clue whether the Nets would be interested in him or not.
No, they probably didn’t overpay, but it looks like they were penny wise and pound foolish. They have secured a team that will compete and win a few, but not a team that will be able to dominate or be serious playoff contenders. Until they find a star.
they could have overpaid for a "star"
but note that they never made an offer to Lee or Stoudemire.
They apparently made an offer to Boozer, but were “outbid”. They were close to making an offer to Haslem but didn’t actually get there. The negotiations with Scola seem to have advanced further than that, but the PF they got closest to was Tyrus Thomas. They were working out the offer when the Bobcats called and said we will give you what you want.
Bottom line: in the cases of Boozer, Scola, Haslem and Thomas, their interest was used to secure a deal with another team. And if reports are correct, the Nets were prepared to offer more money to Scola and considerably more money to Haslem.
It doesn’t appear than any of those guys wanted to play with the Nets…period.
WE HAVE A STAR!!!
his name is Courtney Lee. Shaq said so himself when we got him.
"The only move that really, really shocked me was when Orlando got rid of Courtney Lee. That dude is going to be a star, I’m telling you right now… They’ve done in an excellent job building that team but Courtney Lee, that’s a star brother. Star, star, star."
So we good with that.
The NETS are coming!
Some points
RE: the hand wringing over CDR
Net Income wanted CDR out of here in the worst way. He said, “I don’t like him.” That’s a direct quote. Seems disingenuous now to question the move. I guess N.I. didn’t want to give him away. Seems to me the Nets wanted him out of here so bad that by giving CDR away, it was an addition through subtraction. Interpretation: he was a major sour puss, who enervated the entire environment behind the scenes. They just wanted him gone. Period. Judging that transaction on paper seems a bit futile and irrelevant given he wasn’t trade to make a great transaction on paper but to rid the team of a cancer, the benefit of which doesn’t show up on paper analysis.
RE: the hand wringing over Yi
This with I agree with you, Net Income. Hard to intellectually justify it. I guess they feel Yi’s peaked and they don’t need those surplus Chinese sponsors anymore (?). But why would you turn down additional revenue and 12 ppg for nothing? Yi wasn’t a cancer behind the scenes like CDR. It’s a bit puzzling. Thorn must have really felt Yi peaked. Moreover, the only reason Yi was on the roster was to appease Kiki. And now that Kiki’s gone, so they felt Kiki’s project was no longer necessary to retain, as well.
RE: Ilyasova
His numbers compare quite nicely to TWill. It would be a fair trade. Remember, Ilyasova played good ball during the playoffs on a team that went seven games against a team of superior talent. Meanwhile, TWill played good ball on a nearly historically bad team. He makes sense on a lot of levels.
RE: the difference between Nets and Knicks fans
Agreed. That’s why I feel Nets fans are smarter than Knicks fans. Of course, that shows my bias in that I believe skepticism and outright cynicism is a more “intellectual” position than delusional optimism.
Nets = Global
Knicks = Local
RE: Ilyasova
His numbers compare quite nicely to TWill. It would be a fair trade. Remember, Ilyasova played good ball during the playoffs on a team that went seven games against a team of superior talent. Meanwhile, TWill played good ball on a nearly historically bad team. He makes sense on a lot of levels.
Ilyasova is a second year player. Williams is a rookie. Also, prior to last season, Ilyasova spent two years playing for one of the best teams in Europe. So, if you’re gonna compare stats, compare the numbers TWill put up this year to Ilyasova’s rookie season, not this. As a rookie, TWill struggled the 2/3 months after Kiki took over, but once he broke out, he played at a level that Ilyasova has never EVER reached. I know he’s a perimeter oriented big, but Ilyasova’s shooting pct is very poor for a big man. He shoots .423 from the field for his career. That’s YI bad. As for Ilyasova playing on a playoff team while TWill doing it on a bad one, you put Ilyasova on Nets’ last year squad and it wouldn’t have made any difference.
Nobody in their right mind would trade Williams for Ilyasova. Nobody. I wouldn’t even trade CLee for him. If we can get him on the cheap, then I’m all for it, but that’s it.
I would consider TWill to be equivalent to a #5 pick with 1 year of experience.
Therefore, I would easily prefer to give the Bucks the Warriors 2012 1-7 protected pick before giving up TWill for Ilyasova.
And with Ilyasova appearing to be a “fraud” in terms of his age, why should the Nets give up any more that that.
Bucks already are deep at every position, so getting a good 2012 pick should be what they would want. With DLee now on the Warriors, it is unlikely they would be one of the 7 worst teams in NBA in 2012.
I’m not even sure Nets should give up that pick. There must be a reason (besides false age) why the Bucks don’t seem to have Ilyasova in their future plans.
Besides, if Nets want to get a superstar later on, a developed TWill should be more valuable to other teams too.
Nets only saved $370,000 in cap space by getting rid of CDR. Nets saved 3 million in cap space by getting rid of Yi, at a time when getting 2 Max FA was in play.
Thorn was fleeced by Bucks over CDR. We were told Nets were going to at least get a 2nd round pick from 2010 (which would have produced Tiny Gallon, according to later reports). Thorn could have played hard ball, but didn’t. It was well before the June 30 deadline and CDR probably could have been traded at a later time.
Seems to me, NI, that the Nets were not serious to get Boozer or Amare or Lee, and as reports surfaced they never got to make that offer to Scola. They have been sitting on their hands, it seems. Why not offer Lee what GS offered? Why not offer Amare a deal? Why not offer Boozer the max, instead of holding back a small percentage?
It looks like the plan all along is to fill in with youth and wait for a star to develop from among Lopez, Favors, and James and try to pry someone from a trade. But, the problem with this approach is that certain stars, like Melo and Paul, want to play alongside certain other stars. And a good GM knows that Melo and Paul may be available b/c of what happened with James. This is why it is foolish finance to me to buy on the cheap when the real studs, though overpriced, might get you the next great one. If Amare lands the Knicks Melo or Paul, his 100 mil is money well spent. Our collection of roll players will not yield Paul or Melo. SImple math.
So, thinking about your last point (which I totally agree with), the only way to make stars want to play for your team is to have other stars – sexy owner and rap star don’t seem to work.
They are said to have offered Boozer $75M. His agent told them he would get back to them later, but he never did. He just accepted Chicago’s $80M offer. A team official told Dave D that he never gave them the chance to match that offer, and he (the team official) said they would have probably matched Chicago’s offer.
and don't forget, the well connected David Aldridge said on NBATV, after Chicago signed Boozer, that he expected Thorn to sign DLee by the next afternoon. He felt that they were close.
And Adridge was well aware of the $80 million over 6 year offer by the Warriors, but still felt that Thorn HAD to sign Lee.
We shall see in 2012
How many owners want to do spoiled basketball players leaving their teams “Favors” lol. Denver is just going to let Melo go and get nothing in return? Melo is going to leave all that gauranteed money on the Table to play with Amare? And NO is going to send Paul to nyc for a pack of cigarettes and 2 old newspapers.
Amare was the Boobie prize the Knicks felt they were definitely getting Lebrawn. And when it became clear that they weren’t they quickly tossed 100 million at no defense bad knees and a bad eye.
The NETS are coming!
why not just offer him the 80 mil so there is no getting back to you? Close the deal! Hey, I’d rather play for the Bulls too, with Rose and Noah, and Thorn told us “nobody is taking less money to play for the Nets.” So why offer him less? You know you are in a competitive disadvantage, so you have to offer the most money, the promise of youth, Brooklyn, NYC, and Lopez. Since Chicago and their talent is at least as good as ours and our city, you can’t cut corners on the money.
Don't worry, CP3 and Melo will never be playing on the same team (in their prime) and I would predict that neither will ever play for the Knicks.
With their contracts expiring in different years, the cards just aren’t right. Melo will re-sign with Denver or lose that 21+ million per year. Knicks don’t even have the proper cap space, now that they overpaid for Amare (18 million for next year).
As for Thorn, as I’ve said before, they are guilty of being Snobbish by not interviewing anyone other than LeBron and friends, on July 1. Proky thought he was special, and didn’t need to recruit hard the players they liked. Proky predicted Nets would get either Boozer or Lee. However Chicago and Golden State showed more interest. And as you said, Thorn was being his cheap self by starting negotiations with Boozer and DLee (which NI will deny without written proof) low.
The evidence for the Nets (Avery in particular) desire to get a top PF is verified by their later efforts to pay big money to TThomas and Scola.
Now they are looking for anyone and still being cheap with their cap space (maybe reluctant to get expiring starter TMurphy) or to give up their 2012 Warriors 1-7 protected pick. Instead, my fear is that they might trade their player with the biggest potential in TWill.
The take home message is that you get what you deserve when you are cheap. Thorn would have you believe that patience will bring rewards. However, Proky wants to make the playoffs.

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