The Odd Man Out?
by NBRITM on Jul 29, 2010 11:17 AM EDT
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What seemed like an area of weakness for the Nets last season has now become a congestion. Last year the Nets were hard-pressed to get consistent production from their shooting guards and small forwards. For much of the year the Nets started Courtney Lee at the 2 and Jarvis Hayes at the 3, with CDR coming off the bench as a hybrid and Hassell coming in to provide defense and rebounding. Terrence Williams emerged in latter half of the season as a consistent performer averaging 15-7-7 for the last month and a half of the season earning the Rookie of the Month award in April. Williams finished the season strong and it appeared as if the Nets may have once again gotten lucky in the draft as T-Will dropped to them at 11 (the previous year Lopez dropped to them at 10). It seemed as if the Nets had filled the void at the 2, presumably with Courtney Lee and T-Will splitting time there as all signs pointed to CDR being on his way out.
As expected, during the early stages of the off-season the Nets traded CDR to the Bucks for chump change. With Bobby Simmons, Jarvis Hayes and Trenton Hassell's deals expiring there was now a bigger hole at the SF position than the year prior. The Nets had exchanged "the Yi player" for Quinton Ross, but many assumed that he was unlikely to earn many minutes. All signs pointed to the Nets drafting someone to fill that void, as the Nets traded up for a player who could fill the hole that had been off the radar for much of the Nets fanbase -- Damion James.
Thorn & Co. weren't done there though, as they added Travis Outlaw, Anthony Morrow and Ben Uzoh during free agency.
Now (barring any trades), the Nets are presented with a logjam at the shooting guard and small forward positions. Presumably there are 7 players on the roster who can play either the 2 or the 3: Travis Outlaw, Anthony Morrow, Terrence Williams, Courtney Lee, Damion James, Ben Uzoh, Quinton Ross. It is fair to eliminate both Ross (although he is Avery's kind of player) and Uzoh from contention for significant minutes, but that still leaves 5 players to compete for 96 minutes a night.
Cases can be made for each of the five players, but the favorites to start the season at SG and SF are Courtney Lee and Travis Outlaw, respectively. Now that leaves Terrence Williams, Anthony Morrow and Damion James. Morrow will most likely split minutes with Lee and might even overtake him as a starter if Lee continues to be inconsistent. Damion James is Avery Johnson's product (Avery and the scouts were liked him so much that the Nets traded up for him on draft night) and was very impressive during Summer League. So presumably, he'll get a lot of minutes off the bench because of his grit and versatility.
Speaking of versatility, that leaves one player: Terrence Williams. T-Will displayed an ability to run the point-forward at the latter stages of the 2009 season and expectations grew at an unprecented pace. Many believed that T-Will would come off the bench and play a lot of point guard because they were infatuated with his court vision and precise passing, but after his showing during Summer League and the Nets signing Jordan Farmar, it is evident that there won't be minutes for T-Will at the point guard spot. So the questions are: Where will T-Will play? Will he even get to play? If he doesn't play will he create problems in the locker room? If he does play who's mintues will he be taking? Should the Nets trade T-Will, who appears to have loads of potential and creates mismatches on the offensive side of the floor, because they have no room for him to play?
I like Terrence Williams and I think he has the potential to be a fringe all-star, but I'm not sure there is a place for him on this team. I think the only player that he could replace would be Courtney Lee, but Lee plays superior defense and displays far more consistent shooting.
I don't know the answer, I don't think the Nets should trade T-Will because it would be criminal to give up on a player with a ceiling as high as his, but I just don't see how the Nets can fit him into the rotation with all the off-season additions. Thoughts?
Edit: This is all speculation, of course we won't know until the season starts. Was just trying to spark some debate.
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why not wait until training camp ends....
before we start assuming who will be the 15th man on the roster.
If Williams does what Avery expects out of him, you can’t sit here and tell me with a straight face that he’ll be glued to the pine. We can sit here and dole out minutes on a piece of paper but none of that matters if you have no idea what Avery has in mind for any of these players, or what will happen in training camp and preseason. Or during the regular season for that matter.
I know some folks are hoping that he gets benched or traded because they have some type of personal disdain for the kid, but the Nets don’t share that warped point of view because they have given every indication that he is apart of the plans.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
If Williams does what Avery expects out of him, you can’t sit here and tell me with a straight face that he’ll be glued to the pine.
Exactly.
I know some folks are hoping that he gets benched or traded because they have some type of personal disdain for the kid, but the Nets don’t share that warped point of view because they have given every indication that he is apart of the plans.
Funny thing is, after the season ended, he was considered one of the main reasons we had for hope, now we added a couple of role players and some here start questioning his future with this team? Hilarious.
Kiki, who is a moron who can’t even be called a coach, got the best out of this kid. And the kid got the message. And he played at an unbelievable level. He averaged 14 points, 7 rebounds and more than 5 assists over the last couple of months. Pretending he’ll be buried behind guys like Lee, Morrow, Outlaw, Farmar or James is RIDICULOUS. It’s other guys’ PT you should question, not TWill’s.
why not wait until training camp ends….
before we start assuming who will be the 15th man on the roster.
Avery already said he has an idea of how to utilize TWill, so guys don’t worry. AJ also said he’d let guys battle it out. People need to stop making assumptions.
I know some folks are hoping that he gets benched or traded because they have some type of personal disdain for the kid, but the Nets don’t share that warped point of view because they have given every indication that he is apart of the plans.
Not so long ago, Dave D was quoting team officials as saying they believed TWill could end up being our best player. And now you have people on here questioning his future with our team bc we added a bunch of one dimensional role players, SIGH.
This is pretty simple
Williams is a better player than any perimeter player we have not named Devin Harris. That is the bottom lin,e no matter how you slice it. One-dimensional role players won’t make him expendable or the odd man. Not only is he better than Lee, Morrow, James, Farmar or whoever else we have there, his ability to play any perimeter position will allow him to get more PT. A guy Lee can play the 2 AND NOTHING BUT THE 2. That could limit his PT with all the additions we made. Williams can get PT at the 1, 2 or 3. How many minutes could someone like Lee get with TWill, Morrow and Farmar being able to play the 2? That’s a better question. I don’t get why everyone is focusing on TWill. All this talk about there not being place for him is downright laughable. It’s not like if he had Dwyane Wade and LeBron James ahead of him in the rotation. He IS better than any of the other guys. Now we’ve even come to a point where we’re expecting a late 1st round pick to take minutes away from him, I mean, wtf? Anyways, I’m convinced there will be enough PT for everyone. Outlaw and James can play the 3. Devin usually misses 12-15 games.
I think people are focused on him...
… because of the fact that he’s involved in all the trade talk. And the reason he’s involved in the trade talk is… wait for it… BECAUSE THE OTHER TEAMS ARE HOPING TO STEAL HIM FROM US!
They see the talent and they can’t wait to make him a part of their rotations. I hope Nets management realizes the same.
yet, people want to ship him out for a pack of winterfresh
be easy folks. Be careful what you wish for.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Jul 30, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
If Avery has no interest in T-Will's potential
Why is he sending him out to Tim Grgurich camp along with James, and Favors? From what I read it is very hard to even get your players into this camp because there are only so many slots. Wouldn’t that be a waste of time and resources if T-Will is going to be “riding the pine?”
It is Obvious to me that Avery likes TWill and is using his methods to train and motivate TWill to be a better defensive player, more consistent shooter (TWill already has the range) and ability to make teammates better.
Avery IMO doesn’t want TWill to get too comfortable thinking he can continue what he is doing and settle for being a point forward. I’m sure TWill will get time at SF during the season, but first TWill has to get better in other areas.
Avery is going to try to turn TWill into a STAR!
I think the only player that he could replace would be Courtney Lee, but Lee plays superior defense and displays far more consistent shooting.
I keep reading, and these comments still baffle me. First, let’s stop pretending Lee is Bruce Bowen, he’s a good defender, but we need more from him. Or do you believe Quinton Ross will get playing time? And it’s not like TWill is a bad defender. He has all the tools to become a solid defensive player. Avery has pointed out to his defensive strides after his SL performance. As for shooting, let’s stop pretending Courtney Lee is a sharpshooter and Williams can’t hit the broadside of a bar. Lee spent most of the year bricking OPEN LOOKS right and left. Let’s compare those two’s perimeter shooting stats:
Williams: .310
Lee: .338
Let’s talk about other aspects of the game too:
Lee is a very one dimensional player. He can ONLY play the 2. Williams can play 3 positions.
Lee is a subpar rebounder. Williams is a terrific rebounder for a wing man.
Lee can’t handle the ball. Williams can.
Lee’s passing ability are non-existent. Williams’ are outstanding for wing player.
Williams averaged more assists and rebounds than Lee despite playing more than 10 mpg less than Courtney.
by Andres B on Jul 29, 2010 11:40 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’m with you Andres. I think that T-Will should get the most minutes off the bench, but I was writing from the perspective of the Nets. I just don’t see him playing over free agents (Morrow, Outlaw and Farmar) or Damion James. I think he should play over them, I think he’s a better player, but I’m not sure that Avery agrees. Like I said, I don’t know the answer, nobody knows the answer, not even Avery, this is all speculation.
I do however, disagree that T-Will can play the 3. I’ve stated this ad nauseum, but having stood right next to T-Will there is no way he is 6’6. I’d say he’s 6’4 at most, so I can’t see him playing the 3 consistently.
personally
I don’t see Farmar getting more than 18-20 minutes a night, even his PT could increase if 8or should I say when) Harris gets injured. He’s replacing KD. The fact that we signed him doesn’t necessarily mean he’s gonna get 30 minutes a night. I know Avery said don’t call him a back up(what is he expceted to say anyways?), but that’s what he is: a career back up. He averages 18mpg in his career, and that’s playing behind a much inferior PG to the one he’ll be backing up here.
I see those additions as complementary pieces to our building blocks. And TWill is one of those building blocks, IMO. TWill is a guy we drafted with our lotto pick LAST SEASON. Than investment is no joke. And he showed why we drafted him that high late ion the season.
as for himbeing able to play the SF or not
He may not be that big, but I believe he’s strong enough to handle SFs on D. I know Avery said he’s a 1-2, not a 3, but I think he’ll get some minutes there too. Idk, I don’t get why Avery thinks Morrow can play the 3 but says TWill is def. not a 3.
I've always said
that your position only really matters on defense. Avery however(as a coach) is thinking X’s & O’s & in that case he wants T-Will in the spots marked PG & SG in the offense he sees.
So for example I think we can all see a case where say Harris, Morrow, T-Will, Favors & Lopez are all on the court. Well I don’t care what position you tell me those players are at, I know T-Will is sticking the opposing SF even if he’s in one of the spots marked PG or SG during our offensive sets. That very simple scenario of T-Will being at the 1 or 2 on offense & guarding the 3 on defense throws off everything being said about T-Will not having a spot in the rotation.
great point
T-Will is not your prototypical spot-in for 3 in the corner SF. Morrow and Lee fit the description better so if one of those guys is on the floor with T-Will they would be the 3 on O the 2 on D while T-Will would be the opposite
I don’t get why Avery thinks Morrow can play the 3 but says TWill is def. not a 3.
Because Morrow can shoot, and Williams cannot. Its that simple.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Jul 31, 2010 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions
T-Will can play the 3 if need be
especially if we are running a line up of Harris/Morrow/Williams/Outlaw etc
it doesn’t really matter, he’s the plug and play guy if you ask me. Put him out there and let him make stuff happen just like he did in the last two months of the season.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Jul 29, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
All I have to say is if T-Will comes out with an improved Jumpshot (35%, 45%, 75%. Fair expectations) and playing lockdown defense like he did at Louisville, Lee is the odd man out.
The only odd men out
are the people claiming to know who the Nets’ odd man out will be. It seems to me like you guys have all the free agents playing major roles just because they were signed. Well Outlaw got the money that definitely puts him on the court for now. As for the other guys, you have no idea if they will be major contibutors. People don’t get guaranteed minutes because they were signed a free agents. See: Brandon Bass
by eopanther8 on Jul 29, 2010 12:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Brandon Bass
Bad example, but good point BB didn’t fit with Van Gundys system and Otis Smith signed him Van Gundy didn’t have a say, but in this siuation Rod Thorn did’nt sign anyone Avery did Avery got all these Free Agents so I dont think he signed people that didn’t fit for his system.
I respect that, BUT
I don’t care what his style is, I know Bass should’ve saw more playing time in that Boston series! I thought the whole reason behind that signing was to get tougher? If the coach’s style is to not be tough then he needs to get used to coming up just short every year.
I do get your point though. I just thought when you make moves like that, you’re signaling you’re willing to change like PHX did with Shaq. It didn’t work, but at least they gave it a try. Orl never even gave Bass a shot!
rec'd
for common sense.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Jul 29, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
The way I see it...
… this is Avery’s stick to ensure effort and energy on D.
Don’t want to give the effort? There’s someone on the bench looking for a shot to earn more playing time.
Want more PT? Get after it when you get some burn.
That is a great point
I think Morrow, James, Lee, Harris, Farmar will give 100% I am little bit iffy about Outlaw and T-Will attitude.
based on what?
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Jul 29, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
very early to speculate
but I know u r just trying to stir up some commentary for fun. I think the Nets will play some small ball this yr. I don’t think Avery wants to play a lot of it but if the unit works, it works.
I can see Twill getting soem time at pg, sg anf sf. When at SF, Outlaw can slide to PF for a small unit. Just speculation.
But we are all just speculating but that’s what the fanposts r for.
Interesting Camp?
All of this makes for the prospect of a very interesting camp. There will be lots of competition for playing time, as we are deeper than last year, with better players. I too do not want to dump TWILL at this point, believing that he has potential. The question however, that was posed by NBRITM is correct: Where will the minutes for TWILL come from? How long till camp starts?
Paul from Delray Beach
What you are forgetting in your initial discussion is..
that Outlaw and maybe DJames will get some PT guarding some PFs, thus allowing TWill to get some PT at SF (despite what Avery said).
Also (and someone can do a study of injuries) on any team with 6 players getting most of the PT (Outlaw,James, Lee,Morrow, Harris and Farmar), my estimate is that at least 1 of those players will be sidelined with an injury in about 70% of the games this season. If TWill is next in line (with the assumption that he would be 7th in the pecking order), he would get around 15 minutes of PT on most nights from injuries alone. If 2 players are injured (as was the case last year), he could get his usual 30 minutes/game and have plenty of chance to prove himself worthy of more PT.
Yes, I believe Avery has plans for TWill, especially if he does what he is told and works on his weaknesses.
Lee is Out
I can’t believe this guy’s got a fan club. He had one great playoffs. So did Jerome James. The Nets would have been better off taking Redick, as they gave up Ryan Anderson to get Lee in the VC deal. Redick and Anderson would have done a great job playing off of Brook last year and spacing the floor. Instead, we got Lee.
Now that it’s in the past, we can assess Lee. He shoots inconsistently, has no dribble drive game, and he defends the perimeter well. He’s an average passer.
T-Will is the only guy on the Nets wings that’s capable of making his own shot off the dribble, and his ability to create for others makes this a no brainer. Defensively, I think it’s a matter of coaching. The guy certainly has the physical skills, and he played good defense out of college. I think he’s untradeable.
I think Lee has value for a contender, but not for the Nets. The Nets could do better starting someone with more upside.
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