Chuck Hayes for the Nets
by muwu on Jul 18, 2010 1:57 PM EDT
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PrintA lot has been said about our starting PF and a name that has never come up is Chuck Hayes. This is why he should be considered. Now please read before spouting out comments about how you don't want some tiny undersized power forward who doesn't do anything.
So, why Chuck Hayes?
Availability.
The Rockets currently have a plethora of big men. David Anderson, Chuck Hayes, Jordan Hill, Jared Jeffries, Alexander Johnson, Brad Miller, Patrick Patterson, Luis Scola, and Yao Ming. That's 9. Let's say they consider Jeffries a small forward and Yao Ming doesn't count because he might not be healthy. That's still 7 big men. It's not outside the realm of possibility that a few could be had for the right trade.
Defense.
Say what you want about Chuck Hayes, but if you try and tell me he is not a good defender well my only response to you will be to stop watching basketball because you know nothing. Let's see some stats:
As of after the 2008-2009 season-
- Steals: Hayes ranks 2nd (out of 303 players; behind only Rajon Rondo) in the entire league in Steal% (Steals per defensive possession). Keep in mind, the top spots in this category are typically reserved for point guards and wings, as illustrated by the fact that Hayes currently is the only big in the Top 10.
- Lest you think his lofty status is simply a byproduct of a small sample size, since 2007, Hayes ranks 14th in the entire league in Stl% and is by far the best big (1st out of 127). No other post player is even in the top 35.
- Charges: (Offensive Fouls Drawn per defensive possession) Since 2008 Hayes is top 10 (6th out of 265) in the entire league in drawing offensive fouls.
- Team Defense: Since 2005, Hayes has the best Defensive Efficiency Rating (Based on team points allowed per defensive possession while the player is on the floor) regardless of position in the entire league.
Opposing power forwards have an anemic effective field goal percentage of .344 when matched up against Hayes this season.
Looking at hoopdata.com, Chuck Hayes was 13th in the league last year in charges drawn, drawing a total of 37 charges.
Please read this as well: http://www.thedreamshake.com/2010/5/11/1468295/why-retain-chuck-hayes-a
A summary:
A post-up chance is not the same as a shot attempt - a chance begins as soon as the offensive player receives the ball. He may shoot it, or, due to good defense, he may commit a turnover.
In this regard, Chuck faced the third-most post-up chances of anyone on this list.
the fact that Chuck faced so many "chances" sheds light to how confident the Rockets are in leaving him in a one-on-one situation and holding off the double team.
"% Score" is the money stat. It's pretty self-explanatory, as it measures the percentage of post-up chances that result in a made basket. Hayes is slightly below average when it comes to % Score among the players on this list
"% Turnover" is another self-explanatory stat, as it measures the percentage of post-up chances that end in a turnover. Hayes instantly shoots up the list, which is no surprise, as he has become quite good at swatting the living crap out of the ball as soon as an opponent turns to score.
in other words, Hayes makes it tougher to get a shot off, but if an opponent can manage to do so, it's easier for them to score on Chuck than it is against most of the post defenders on the list.
Here's where Chuck is most valuable: the wallet. For what the Rockets pay him, Hayes gives the defense a very effective individual post defender.
Let's hear some quotes:
I may not be top in the league in blocks but if I’m guarding, say, LaMarcus Aldridge and I make him shoot a bad percentage, then I hope they pay attention to that,” says Hayes. “I just wish there was a stat for keeping your man to the lowest field goal percentage.
“I’m a strong guy,” says Hayes when asked to explain his success against bigger players. “I’m low to the ground and it’s also about my footwork; I always keep my feet moving. One thing good about me: I may be smaller than you, but I’m able to move my feet just as quick as you and I’m going to make you take the shot that I want – not the shot that you want to take.”
A great hustle defender who manages to be effective despite his size. Has a very hard time covering taller players in the post. Will give everything he’s got to deny entry passes, and is terrific at coming up with steals. Uses leverage and great overall strength to push his man off the block. Goes straight up when his man goes to make a move. Will commit some fouls when rotating over in help side and when he’s beat. Won’t block many shots from the weakside. Gets most of his rejections by keeping his hands up and maintaining good position. Stays on his feet when his man tries to fake him into the air. Great at boxing out. Has excellent timing and smarts. Won’t get outrebounded despite his size. Provides great energy, but isn’t able to push his man around for the duration of a game.
From DraftExpress.comhttp://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chuck-Hayes-110/#ixzz0u3UKomzD
http://www.draftexpress.com
From his draft scouting report:
Strengths
Defense, defense and defense. Hayes was named the 2004 SEC Defensive Player of the Year, no small feat for an undersized power forward. Often asked to guard the opponent's best big man (whether he was 6'5" or 7'0"), Hayes could be counted on to lock down his man.
From DraftExpress.comhttp://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chuck-Hayes-110/#ixzz0u3XTyVGT
http://www.draftexpress.com
Learning.
Now the only reason we're trying to get a "stopgap" PF or a temporary starter who can move to the bench is because we have a promising rookie in Derrick Favors waiting in the wings. Wouldn't it be a great thing for him to learn from a great defensive guy, a guy who has never let his size disadvantage stop him from being a great defender or competent rebounder?
Value for money.
Chuck Hayes earns a measly $2.33 million dollars this year. That's less than Jordan Farmar will make. If you read the entry from thedreamshake up above, you'll see how he gives you comparable post defense to guys making much much more than him.
Sources:
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/10419/world-please-notice-chuck-hayes http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chuck-Hayes-110/ http://www.nba.com/rockets/news/the_campaign_begins_chuck_hay_2009_11_06.html http://www.nba.com/rockets/news/Donrsquot_Forget_About_Chuck-302148-34.html http://www.thedreamshake.com/2010/5/11/1468295/why-retain-chuck-hayes-a http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/rockets.jsp
P.S.
If you're gonna bury this by tomorrow in fanpost oblivion, at least bury it with fanposts you worked hard on, not fanposts containing whatever though suddenly popped into your head and will have more content in the comments than in the actual fanpost.
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I'd like him on this team.
But I wouldn’t want him using that free throw routine..
Good Idea!
I’d take him, at this point. He may be better at times than either Favors or THE HUMPH, and he can be had cheaply. A blue collar kind of guy. Good Idea Muwu!
Paul from Delray Beach
interesting idea
I like all the info and stats- great post
He fits well in a defense oriented systrm. I just worry if we will have enough offense as a team with him starting and favors behind him.
But for a cheap short xontract he provides excellent D, toughness, playoff experience, and hustle. All of these have been incredibly lacking since kmart left
I just dont know if we would be better off with a more offensivly orientes veteran player to work with favors in the rotation( ex c landry or troy murphy)
by Moj0 on Jul 18, 2010 2:49 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Well a system can't have too much defense in my opinion
Sure a veteran player who has good offensive moves would help Favors with his weakness, but a good defensive guy would help him with his strength, possibly taking him from a good defender to an elite defender. And we do have a coaching staff to take care of Favors’ development so his learning won’t all be on the players he’s with
Excuse me? And why this is not likely to happen.
a name that has never come up is Chuck Hayes
I’ve mentioned him before and I’ve been screaming his name in every post since the Brad Miller trade hit the news. Great job on the post though.
There are a 2 important things you didn’t mention. As far availability goes, the Rockets are $9M over the tax so that would make him more available. 2nd, what are you trading for him? Usually under these circumstances a guy like Hayes could be had for a 2nd rounder. When I tried to get the other teams perspective their fans were not quick to jump on this offer and here is why.
*While they do agree that Hayes’s value around the league is about a 2nd rounder or so, but to the Rockets he is much more valuable.
*They said that the owner laid out a clear plan and instructions to match all the offers to their RFA (incase some of us where questioning Morey). They were willing, ready and expected to be over the tax.
*They also were looking to add another C from the start, so picking up the option on Hayes tells me they plan on keeping him no matter what.
*Their fans are also pretty certain Hayes has a good chance to be the 4th big in the rotation ahead of young guys like Patterson and Hill.
*Even though they do have tons of depth, the only guys suited for C are Yao, Miller and Hayes. With Yao’s health a factor its doubtful they would give up Hayes now.
*There is talk that they plan to package Ariza or Battier with some of those bigs you listed for a 3 man. According to their insiders there are some talks about Igudala in particular. But even if that trade does not happen, they have close to $20M in exp. deals (not counting Yao) to play with and most of them are more likely to be moved before Hayes.
*The team is ready to pay the tax if they win, if they dont, they can always make moves at the deadline which does not suit the Nets at all.
So you see, availability is not as good as it may appear at 1st look. I even said I would be willing to take on Andersen along with Hayes (savings of 9M for them) but they still insist they are keeping Hayes.
Of course they wanna keep Hayes, he's integral to their team
Point being with them having a lot of bigs is that it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world for them if they lost Hayes because they have a lot of other promising guys at that PF/C spot as well (although none of them could give the defense Hayes does). Patrick Patterson is gonna be a good role player, and Jordan Hill was a top 10 pick just a year ago. If one of them busts out then there’ll be less minutes all around.
Not saying he could be easily had, just saying he would be a great pickup if you could/are willing to offer the right deal for him
Whats the right deal?
I definitely would not offer anyone that is expected to get minutes. Any of the 7 perimeter guys are too talented to trade for Hayes. They dont need bigs and he is not worth a 1st rounder.
Why isn't great post defense worth a 1st rounder? A 1st rounder two, three, or four years down the line would hopefully be not a lottery pick anymore
And I don’t see why anyone outside of TWill and Lee would be too valuable for him. Morrow and James likely yeah but I’d trade Outlaw for him if we can find he’s a loyal guy willing to resign with us.
Another reason why I like Hayes is he reminds me of Malik Rose
A guy that I respect and admire so much. Like Chuck, was never the biggest guy on the court, but had the biggest heart and got as much out of every inch and every muscle in his body
Would you say a better way to present this was
hey maybe we should get chuck hayes hes a pretty good defender but i don’t know if the rockets would trade him but maybe they would he would help our defense and be really cheap and teach favors a thing or two and they have a lot of big men so maybe they might trade him
aka the netsfan514 format?
Yeah it would be nice if the nets could sign him.
Nice work Muwu.. cheers..
The NETS is like my own sense of direction..
The MAGIC made me realize that one..
wow
I was giving my opinion on who i would like at pf and never said I think they would just trade him,anyway chuck hayes averaged 4 FG attempts and made about 2 a game.!!!!HE IS GARBAGE!!!!!!!!!!!
I very much like the idea overall, but I think the Nets are going to shoot for a better name
I don’t think the Nets want to bring in someone that normal everyday fans (not people who actually know his game) think is an absolute joke to start at power-forward…His world-renouned, ridiculously embarssing free-throw style will have the Nets continue to be laughed at, and we must remember that we were worst in the league in scoring last year, it may be necessary to have some type of scorer at that position. . .
As for who I’d trade for him, probably nothing else than a 2nd rounder, maybe Outlaw to clear up space for another small forward? Idk if you’re talking about shipping away Djames, outlaw, lee or Twill for this guy i think its a little bit risky and quite ridiculous…
Well the only players I would trade for him is
Outlaw, Hump, Petro, Farmar. Maybe Morrow in the right package if it’s really reallyyyyy tempting.
Based on this post...
I can now accept the fact he’s only 6’6’’
by Terrance Doyle on Jul 18, 2010 11:05 PM EDT reply actions
Hayes is awesome!
But there is no way that the Rockets are going to let him go. They love him! From the very beginning, they recognized taht good things always happen when he is on the court, and gradually gave him more and more playing time. I think he was Morey’s first big “statistical-oriented” success as a GM. They realized that Hayes got a high percentage of what they defined as defensive stops by limiting the number of good shots the opposition got, even though he wasn’t tall. They grabbed him and everyone thought he was just a scrub . . . but they were right about him!
Classic example of a "glue guy"
Which is exactly what the Nets have been saying that they are looking for. Good post muwu.
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