John Wall or Evan Turner?
by Net Income on May 2, 2010 3:16 PM EDT
in 2010 NBA Draft
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PrintMarch to March is a college basketball blog. Its Kevin Berger takes a look at John Wall and Evan Turner as if he were the Nets' GM. He's not trying to see how Wall or Turner would fit into the Nets current roster. It's all about "best player available", which is how the Nets have always claimed they make draft decisions.
Berger thinks both have faults. Wall, in spite of his Jordanesque athleticism, has shooting issues. If Wall puts time in, as Jordan and Kobe Bryant did, "he’ll be the steal of the draft as the number one pick. If he’s merely average in terms of work ethic which translates to skill and shooting improvement, OJ Mayo would be a more accurate comparison".
Turner, he writes, is not as athletic as Wall (who is?) and might become "a jack of all trades, master of none...Is he elite enough to take smaller players off the dribble? Is he physical enough to slide down to the 3 if that’s what the club that drafts him needs? Don’t get me wrong, he can be a solid player at any of three positions, but solid isn’t what the number 1 pick in the draft is about."
Bottom line for Berger is the Nets should take Turner at #1...or be happy if he's available at #2. "If I’m New Jersey, I go Evan Turner because he’s going to come in and give you a talented team guy on a squad lacking direction and chemistry. I’m not sure Wall can do that right away. In all honesty, Turner can be what fellow Big 10 big guard Steve Smith was supposed to be coming out of college. The next Magic Johnson."
- NBA Draft: Making The Call On Evan Turner Or John Wall - Kevin Berger - March to March
- 2010 NBA Mock Draft, Version 1.0 - Scott Schroeder - Ridiculous Upside
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Meh all discussion right now is pretty moot
We should wait until workouts start and see what these guys show.
And we an argue all we want, but each has their own set of pros and cons. Fact is both are good players and would benefit us no matter which we pick. We get pick number 1 or 2, and our summer is golden no matter what happens.
It's more the interviews than the workouts
Nets personnel have probably seen both play five or ten times this year.
But until they declare, teams can’t talk to the players. Now, they can get an upclose look at them, give them the NBA psychological test, get a read on them. Nets turned sour on Earl Clark last year after they spoke with him and found him wanting in desire or personality.
Turner will certainly do well at the Interview. (I'm not so sure about Johnson, and certainly not Cousins, but then expectations are so low on DeMarcus)
So is it true that Nets Insiders prefer Wall? I thought the only people who count are Thorn and the unnamed new Nets Coach (who should be given a big say in the pick and draft day strategy). Kiki should be 1/2 way out the door by June 24.
Just one person's opinion vs. another person's opinion.
Everyone should at least acknowledge it is worthy of debate.
But the arguments presented by Berger don’t take into consideration team needs, which involves discussions about Devin Harris and whether he can be an all star level player again, with a new coach and better teammates.
I predicted it would be a toss-up decision for the Nets by June 24, but it would all be academic if Nets don’t get a top 2 pick on May 18.
It's more than just an opinion
I loaded my case with evidence that informed my opinion. I didn’t decide on John Wall being the best player and then go out to make that case; I studied both players for a long, long time. I watched both of them play a ton of games and concluded who was better based on that evidence. I am increasingly finding it hard to believe you did the same.
You’ve failed to present a single argument that could actually be written as a case for Turner, or one that I didn’t debunk in that article. I’d love to actually have a open, engaging debate on the topic, but most of the anti-Wall replies were of the “EVAN TURNER IS BETTER, THE END” variety.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Just almost everyone's opinion
http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/2009/02/mock-draft/
Of 29 sites that updated recently, 28 pick Wall; the one bizarre site (for picking Xavier Henry as the #3 pick) picks Turner. The consensus is overwhelming.
by calling all toasters on May 2, 2010 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
& I highly doubt that a website called "NEPatriotsDraft" can be listed as having expertise on the NBA draft n/m
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
They're actually kind of funny
They like Henry because he reminds them of Ray Allen. I suppose if there were a Kevin McHale-type or a John Havlicek-type, he’d be #1.
by calling all toasters on May 2, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Reading their mock draft - it's AWFUL
Whiteside at 4, Cousins at 8, Jan Vesely at 18 (he dropped out of the draft, but even if he was in he’d be lottery easily)…
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
My opinion that it will be a toss up by June 24 stands and it WILL depend on team needs whent it is a close decision.
Just like my opinion that TWill would finish the year strong if given 30 mpg PT, when most people said he was a bust.
I'll bet when they measure players reach, that we will see that Turner has about a 6" reach advantage.
Just one small tidbit that noone has factored in yet.
Please wait for the workouts at least.
Standing reach? Maybe
Turner is 6’6" with I think a 7’ wingspan, Wall is 6’3" with at least a 6’9" wingspan (probably longer). When you adjust for position, though, that advantage becomes less important.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
i've always wondered
what does a guy who’s like 6-7 with a 7’2 wing span do with their life if they suck at basketball. It must be an incredibly awkward existence.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Volleyball?
I know one who’s a doctor, but he is pretty awkward.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
House painter...
…specializing in vaulted great rooms. Saves $ on ladders.
by madisonmetsfan on May 2, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I value the opinion of Nets fans over the Mock-drafts in comparing Wall vs. Turner ..
because we have been following both players all year (probably Wall more so), whereas the “experts” have to follow every top 100 player.
We've been following Wall more so?
I thought we were just watching ESPN highlights…
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions
When the team you root for is unwatchable...
…you might as well watch college games of lottery prospects. At least maybe some folks did; I generally ignore college hoops til March.
by madisonmetsfan on May 2, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
More KY games have been shown on ESPN and CBS.
I get the Big 10 Network and can watch some OS games.
On the issues raised in the article
Evan Turner:
I dunno how effectively he could play the 3 spot. He’s 205 pounds. Deron Williams is heavier than he is.
For all his assists, he racked up a ton of turnovers. 4.4 to’s a game to his 6 assists a game. How effective of a ball handler could he really be?
Will his rebounding be able to translate to the pros? Kevin Durant was a double digit rebounder in college, so was Mike Beasley.
John Wall:
I don’t see why OJ Mayo would be the comparison if he doesn’t improve his shooting as much. OJ is a pretty darn good shooter and is nowhere near as athletic. I think a good comparison for him is Russell Westbrook. Very athletic and explosive , awesome defender with a questionable shot.
how much does Wall weigh?
Can he go into the paint in the NBA the way he did in college? Why is he more likely to remain free of injury than other whippet-fast point guards like Devin Harris or Tony Parker?
Is anyone expecting him to play the 3 spot?
I think most scouts seem to have him playing the 2 in the NBA.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Probably most time at the 2 spot, since it isn't likely Nets would get a FA SG and CLee could come off the bench.
But certainly he would get PT at 1 and 3 depending on the makeup of the team and if for no other reason but to give CLee his PT.
I do
I think he’s perfectly suited to play the 3 in the NBA. He’s long, he’s 6-7, he’s a very good defender, and his playmaking/ballhandling skills would be more of a mismatch if he played the 3 than if he played the 2. At the 2, smaller guards could defend him better and have him turn the ball over more.
“For all his assists, he racked up a ton of turnovers. 4.4 to’s a game to his 6 assists a game. How effective of a ball handler could he really be?”
http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1008
Not a good analysis
Wall is compared to Jordan/Kobe while Turner is compared to Magic? This is backwards.
by calling all toasters on May 2, 2010 3:34 PM EDT reply actions
Neither comparison is very good.
Wall is more like a skinnier but more explosive Derrick Rose, with some nicer moves.
Turner should be like a poor man’s cross between Magic Johnson and Kobe, but should be a more rounded player than Brandon Roy, who he is often compared with.
Turner a cross between Kobe and Magic? Poor man's or not, that's reaching n/m
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
It's your tireless effort to make your case that leaves me continually impressed
You can’t just make baseless claims and not expect to be called into question. You just compared a guy who had an excellent year in college to two of the best 10 players to ever play basketball. I’d ask you to back it up, but it’s just so ridiculous to make that claim now that I can’t even try.
Again, a thoughtful, engaging debate would be welcomed on this side, but if this is the kind of argument that pro-Turner fans want to attempt, I’m not sure if it would be worth it…
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
"poor man's cross" means that Turner has attributes of both Magic and Kobe, but of course not as good as either. I will stand by that evaluation.
Are you old enough to have seen Magic playing live, during his younger days?
No
are you young enough to realize that the nature of the NBA game is changing to favor players with Wall’s exact skillset?
Speaking of Magic, he said this about John when asked if he would be a franchise alterer as the #1 pick:
“Yeah, he’s special. Not only on the court, but off the court as well. He’s one of those guys who’s got ‘it.’ I went down to Kentucky to watch him recently, and he’s just amazing. He’ll have instant impact.”
Magic had a once-in-a-lifetime size and court vision blend (until LeBron came along). Kobe has a killer scoring instinct that is the closest replica to Jordan since he retired. Turner is a good passer but let’s not pretend he blends the best attributes of these guys.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Steve Smith followed Turner closely (I think he announced or commentated on Big Ten games) and likes him better.
Magic mostly watched ESPN highlights (like everyone else) of Wall, before watching him play live.
Steve Smith followed Turner closely for 3 years. Of course I value Smith’s opinion over Magic.
The bottom line once again, is that this is a debatable subject.
Even most of the people who might pick Wall over Turner would admit that it is debatable, and I predict that debate will intensify.
Again, you're making things up
Could you please source how you know Magic has only seen Wall on ESPN highlights?
Because I can point to the fact that Magic has actually seen him live, and as an NBA commentator with a lot invested in knowing players, can certainly assume he’s watched more.
Steve Smith followed Turner for three years, of course he thinks Turner is better, he’s focused intently on Turner for three years. That’s what people do.
You can name one person who prefers Turner and I can name 30 who prefer Wall. You can only make up the ideas about ESPN highlights and “Turner is more NBA ready” and “Wall has a questionable work ethic” for so long.
I’m close to being done with responding to you because it’s becoming increasingly clear that I’m talking to a brick wall. You’ve either made baseless claims or outright lied to prove your point numerous times.
The more I see you spout your opinions the more uninformed you have looked.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
If you think you can change my mind, you SHOULD give up. I don't expect to change your opinion.
Once again, I am only saying that the subject is very debatable and that will intensify. You are saying that you know Wall is better, even before interviews/workouts.
Even an ESPN analyst like Michael Wilbon, who prefers Turner, has a hard time saying it, because that’s not what he is supposed to say.
Bret Barry, for example on the draft pick segment, couldn’t get himself to admit he prefers Turner. Instead he just said something like “people seem to think Wall will be the #1 pick”. Once again spreading the Hype, instead of being bold to express his own opinion.
Of course ZERO of the analysts are considering team needs or are versed in knowing what Nets could get back in return for Devin Harris – little at this time.
Changing your mind is the best way of figuring out you still have one
You’ve yet to present a real reason why anyone should change their mind to prefer Turner. Just that you like him more.
If you’re proud in being hardheaded, that’s your own fault.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 3, 2010 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Is there a Mirror availabe?
I’m only recognizing that experts would take either Wall or Turner and would be happy with either (not counting team needs), while you are arguing that it is a Slam Dunk for Wall, because you proved it (without any possibility for disagreement) in your own definitive article that you posted on NetsDaily.
And believe me, I hope if Nets don’t get #1 pick, that another team takes Wall, so that Turner might still be available. I’m just not that hopeful.
I was actually on the Turner bandwagon for a while
I switched back and forth a couple of times before making my decision.
I’ve said multiple times that I think Turner is going to be a great player and that if the Nets ended up getting him, I’d be fine with that.
Just that Wall is the clear-cut #1 prospect, and we can’t afford to pass if given the opportunity to take him.
The reason I keep pointing to the article is because it was so blatantly obvious you hadn’t really read it, and yet you were commenting as if you had.
“I’m only recognizing that experts would take either Wall or Turner and would be happy with either”
Again, you need to stop making things up. You’ve been advocating for Turner and almost exclusively for Turner this entire time.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 3, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
It's a convincing endorsement
…when a Big Ten alum broadcasting to Big Ten fans on the Big Ten Network publicly declares his preference for a Big Ten player.
by calling all toasters on May 2, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
No, he said it on a Neutral NBATV and no one present disagreed.
The draft expert present thought Wall would go #1 (not considering team needs), but he (like most experts), admitted it was a very close call and didn’t think anyone could go wrong with Turner.
That is why I am justified to say that most people picking Wall, would admit it was very, very close.
....& they still pick Wall, which renders your argument meaningless n/m
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 3, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Hmm, I know about all that, most other people do too
..& they still have Wall going #1. Intriguing.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 3, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
not "that" Jersey Shore...Point Pleasant, 10 refreshing miles north of Seaside.
by John at the Jersey Shore on May 3, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL. Every time I see one of those I think of this
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 3, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
too scary!
not "that" Jersey Shore...Point Pleasant, 10 refreshing miles north of Seaside.
by John at the Jersey Shore on May 3, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Shooting
Shooting is the easiest thing for an NBA player to improve. It’s a non-issue. LeBron couldn’t shoot, Rose couldn’t shoot, RJ couldn’t hit the backside of a barn when he came in and he turned into a very good midrange shooter. Shooting will come.
it is not a non-issue
for every player who improved there are those who either never improved or improved late, like Kidd.
You bring up the example of Kidd
but Kidd was a great player, poor shooting notwithstanding. I agree with the writer that if he shows a desire to improve year-to-year instead of being happy to be in the Association, then I think Wall will be fine. He has other assets that will make up for poor shooting in his first year. I’m not quite as sold on Turner yet for two reasons: 1) as we all know, the pro game isn’t the same as college, and it is highly unlikely he will put up the type of #s he produced at Ohio State. I think he could be more like OKC’s Jeff Green than Magic Johnson. 2) That fractured spine scares the heck out of me. It reminds me of TJ Ford from a couple of years ago. He was a PG that was setting the world on fire until he had a nasty fall, also severely hurting his back. When he came back, he was solid, but not the blow-by PG from his past.
At the end of the day, I think desire and the pursuit of individual athletic perfection differentiates the average players from the stars. And the ability to stay healthy.
Speaking of that
does anyone have any more information on his injury? You’d think it’d be the type of thing getting indepth analysis for a possible top 4 pick but I haven’t been able to find any real information about what exactly happened how it was fixed and a long-term prognosis/impact. Which seems kind of surprising considering a back break doesn’t seem to be a run of the mill type of injury.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I don’t think it’s fair to compare anybody to Magic.
I like to think of Turner as Pippen without the ridiculous length and athleticism.
Agreed with TWilliam
I’ve been saying for a while that Turner may be the closest thing to Pip we’ve seen in a while
According to TWilliAM's post
He thinks he has Pippen’s skill set, but not the athletic makeup on the court of Pippen, which means he thinks Turner isn’t as good as Pippen. At least that’s how I took it.
Uhh
If Wall works on his shooting he can be like Kobe, a .340 career shooter, or MJ, a .330 career shooter, and if he doesn’t, he’s gonna be more like a .380 career shooter? I guess I hope he doesn’t work on his jumpshot.
Why not trade Harris/GSW pick for the number 2 pick?
Would you rather have:
Wall
Turner
LBJ
Lee
Lopez
or
Wall
Harris
LBJ
Lee
Lopez
Singler or some solid guy off the bench
I really think you need to lower your expectations. No team is trading the #2 pick in the draft for the quick but injury-prone PG of a 12-70 team and a 2012 1st round pick that is top 7 protected. Plus the chances that LeBron comes to NJ are extremely slim, and Singler has announced he is returning to Duke next season.
The Legend
Harris/Wall
C Lee
LBJ
D Lee
Lopez
Turner and Wall are rookies anyway…even LBJ and Melo weren’t all that good as rookies with their low shooting %tages…
I would pick Wall because his speed in unmatched even in the pro level…we all saw how Westbrook and Rose who are inferior players to Wall shred the Lakers’/Celtics’ defense…
Also, Harris, who shares the same position as Wall has a very very favorable contract we can use in a trade to a position of need once Wall is ready…
Either one an upgrade
I am happy with either one. Both DH and CLee seem like role players or third guards to me. A starting backcourt of TWill and Turner sounds terrific to me, especially with a shooter like Gay at the 3. Wall, Lee and Gay with TWill as 6th man is also attractive. If the Nets get a pick lower than 2, they should trade it for talent.
1. Harris a role player? Come ON.
2. Gay is NOT a shooter.
3. You can’t have a backcourt of TWill and Turner. Neither is a full time NBA PG.
On point 3
You don’t need a full-time PG. The Jordan Bulls went long stretches with Steve Kerr or John Paxson at the 1 (titularly). LeBron gets the most assists on the Cavs. These are/were highly successful team that let their star(s) handle the ball as much as they need to. If CLee is your SG, OTOH, then you need a real PG.
by calling all toasters on May 3, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
SERIOUSLY???????
Harris a role player, yea rite!!!!!!!! Courtney Lee may be a role player but not harris and gay is not exactly a shooter And WILLIAMS IS NOT CAPABLE OF BEING A STARTING POINT GUARD..
Either one would be good, yes
but comparing Evan Turner to a potential magic? Not so sure….I see Evan Turner’s ceiling as a Brandon Roy, whereas Wall has a ceiling of a smaller Magic.
Crashing the [message] boards from the heart of Spurs Nation, San Antonio, Texas. GO SUNS!
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there is no smaller Magic
Magic was 6’9" and physically mature when he entered the NBA, which is why he was so unique.
Turner- raw talent wise- is much like a Magic but not his calibar. Both possess scroing ability, rebounding for the pg position and outstanding passing ability. Both are good defenders as well. That’s the comparison, but as far as career in the NBA goes, i highly doubt Turner can reach that kind of level
Brandon Roy ceiling?
What’s Roy’s ceiling? He’s been in the league just a few years – still plenty of upside. I would love to have Turner on the Nets if he was going to be anything like Roy.
I think Turner will be better than Roy
He has the potential to be more complete. Turner will be a much, MUCH better rebounder and defender than Roy, even a better facillitator.
Evan Wall???
If for instance Min gets the first pick they would pick Turner.. If we draft wall.. we will need to find a sharp shooter in the Free agency.. Like what i said Turner is Better than Wall but wth something is telling me that “whatever happens” Wall will be NJ’s drafty..
we don't light the stars, we simply fade with them..
Other teams
Minnesota (barring a brain cramp from Kahn) would definitely pick Wall. Flynn didn’t work out and Rubio may never come. The only team that would not pick Wall is NO, and they would certainly trade down so that they could get another player along with a very early pick.
by calling all toasters on May 2, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
well
Maybe we just have to wait for the workouts.. :))
we don't light the stars, we simply fade with them..
right
Still had my brain in the NFL draft, where they do it differently. But of course Minnesota (or whoever) would want to know what rookie they’re trading for.
by calling all toasters on May 2, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
do they really do it differently in the NFL?
It seems to be BPA then deal in that draft too. And really very few deals happen where players who have already been picked are traded.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Evan Turners athleticism
His supposed lack of athleticism is overrated, is Joe Johnson more athletic to him?? He’s definitely athletic enough to have an allstar career in this league, I think what sets him apart is his ball handling skills, at his size thats a scary thing especially with slower 3’s trying to guard him.
There's no doubt that Turner's a good athlete
and that is why he will be a top 2 pick, but Wall is on a whole ‘nother level in terms of athleticism. I think we all agree that both should have all-star careers barring injury, but Wall’s athleticism makes him more likely than Turner to reach superstar status.
The Legend
Evan turners flaw is his shooting…wall has more flaws then turner but is younger.
I agree that interviews are going to be big….turner seems to have more dersever then wall, cousins and favors combined. Nets would be satisfied with the 2nd pick.
by Andy. on May 2, 2010 5:09 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Evan turner shot it at 54.1% a game
A lot of those were midrange jumpers, his midrange game is not the problem it’s stretching to the three point line, but his jumper is not to be worried about.
I would need to look, but I recall him taking and making a good number of threes toward the end of the season.
His range definitely improved as the season progressed
I don’t have too many doubts about his range at the next level.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 3, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Everybody is going to regret not picking Wall if we end up with the 1st pick. It’s really going to hurt when we see him on another team doing what he does best then to say aww man he could’ve been with us.
If the Nets don't win the lottery, I'll live with not getting Wall
But if we get the #1 pick and skip on him, or trade him, we’re going to regret it for a long, long time.
Plus I really doubt that we’ll trade the #1 pick if we get it considering Wall’s business interests with LeBron, and even the slim chance we have at signing him could be opened a little more if we keep him. If we trade him, though, those chances are shot.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel everything said about John Wall is true its not just hype. Yes the ESPN critics and NBA analyst loves this guy and believes he’s a no doubter as the #1 pick. Regardless of how high these people talk on him his skills is without a doubt the best in this years lottery. Nobody should ever worry about a young NBA players shooting % that’s why we have coaches and assistant coaches to help with all that this guy is a can’t miss and we cannot get the #1 pick and not choose this guy no way no how.
I don't really think so
people aren’t really hounding on Portland for passing Durant for Oden. Are there really any examples of teams picking the guy who was generally the consensus BPA and him not working out and getting slammed in the media?
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
and even though most people think Beasley is somewhat of a bust
you don’t really hear the media slamming Miami for taking him over Westbrook or Mayo.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I’m not worrying about anybody slamming us. In my opinion Turner does not get choosing over Wall. I believe Wall’s potential is higher then Turner. Yes Turner would have an instant impact on any NBA team next year but in the long run Wall would be a much much better player.
Thank YOu!!
Wall’s athletic ability with his speed, size, court vision, and ability to drive the lane make him better than Turner. Turners average speed and athleticism is what is holding him back. Taking this into cosnideratrion, you would have to believe Wall will be the better player in the NBA
Turner or Cousins may win Rookie of the Year
Similarly to the way Carmelo beat LeBron for ROY. Wall should be able to produce right away and long-term is a far better bet.
(Before anyone says it, no, I don’t think Wall is or will be as good as LeBron.)
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
LeBron was the rookie of the year; 'Melo was a close second ...
A better example would be Okafor winning ROY the next year, but Howard turning into the league’s dominant center.
The Legend
My apologies, I've been under the impression that 'Melo won for years
Can’t believe I’ve been lying to myself about that.
I wrote about the Wall:Turner::Howard:Okafor comparison in my original article, interesting how fate might work again.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Turner is more NBA ready than the other 2, so he would likely get more PT and thus win the ROY.
That is part of the author’s reasoning that Turner is more NBA ready and therefore is less of a risk. No one should doubt that. No one should doubt Turner’s work ethic and ability to lead a team.
The discussion should be about Wall’s upside, which those who like him think his upside is big.
It is true though that people don’t know if Wall will have the same work ethic as Turner and be able to lead a team like Turner has proven to.
Once again, none of this factors in what to do about Devin Harris, because there would be great uncertainty if he could co-exist with Wall for long. And people don’t realize it would be hard to trade Harris for near All Star value.
.
Yes, LeBron was ROY.
I won't speak for everybody, but it's more than just upside
Wall can contribute instantly at the next level. AND he’s got much more room to grow than Turner.
& what’s this questioning of his work ethic? I’ve never heard a single negative word about his work ethic. He’s quoted as saying he wants to be the best point guard ever. It’s listed as one of his strengths on numerous draft websites (DraftExpress being one of them). Calipari himself said “I did not know his will to win was this strong. I had no idea. I did not know his work ethic. And I’ve been surprised.”
He always looks like he works his butt off when he’s playing.
You’ve got to stop making things up to attempt to strengthen your argument. It doesn’t look very good.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Wall's 'intangibles'
Just read today that on a team with a average GPA of 2.0 (yikes), Wall has better than a 3.0.
by calling all toasters on May 2, 2010 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Turner is more of a risk because there are questions about his ability to play within an offense that ISN’T structured around him; he struggled mightily his freshman year, registering more turnovers than assists and rarely looking comfortable.
Plus despite conventional thinking, underclassmen have generally outperformed their older counterparts at the NBA level.
Wall is the kind of guy who can come in and run an offense without always having to be the focal point, but can still turn it on when necessary. If anything, there should be no doubts about that.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
All i know is if we end up with Rubio i am gonna be sick.
Wall or Turner, either one will make me happy.
All this "the Next" never adds up
How many Next Jordan’s have their been? The closest Kobe couldn’t hold MJ’s jockstrap.
His strength is the first thing he lacks on court.
How many Next Jason Kidd’s? The closest has been Deron Williams but he doesn’t have the rebounding, or passing ability…Rubio MIGHT have similiar passes in his leage but does he have the rebounding, strength, insane will to win?
Chris Paul reminds me of Isiah Thomas but he’s no future hall of famer in my opinion.
Bottom line to me Wall in the near future does not look like he will be that much better than what we have with an Allstar PG
Will it be better for the Nets to pick up possibly the next Grant Hill type player with a better jumper, but not probably not as athletic. Or get a player who will take time to develop and we don’t know into what, when we have a player who we know when paired by a good-great wing can have a allstar season and put up 42 points and beat a team single handily.
If ET reminded me of Grant Hill I'm riding shotgun on the bandwagon.
Problem is he played point guard; or point forward; instead of the traditional small forward.
I’m not sold on his jumper to play 2guard either. I’d sign Rasual Butler.
Partial to the Nets getting a good big man through the draft.
The Next…..
We already have an Evan Turner...
his name is Terrence Williams.
I’m on the ropes with this one honestly. Both there games are the same not completely different.
Both great defenders.
T-Will more athletic.
Both point forwards who can handle the basketball.
Turner a better shooter.
Triple double candidates game in and game out.
Turner is more of a leader.
Both have potential to be superstars.
What’s different?
Turner's a WAYYY better scorer than T-Will and always has been
Just look at their college shooting numbers if you’re curious about that.
I don’t think T-Will has superstar potential. Pretty much everything that T-Will does, Turner will do more effectively at the next level.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't argue the fact that Turner is better then T-Will.
Me, I look at how a players presence alone can impact a game and T-Will’s presence and commitment to defense and getting his teammates involved makes him a superstar in my book. Turner is a wayyyy better scorer then T-Will that I pointed out already. The comparisons I’m trying to point out to y’all is besides scoring what else is different between there games?
He’s a walking Triple double I can’t name too many NBA players who fills up the stats sheets like he does.
he also plays out of control
has no outside shot and his ability to actually run an offense is unknown
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
yeah he was horrible most of the year din't get the PT
He seperated himself from CDR as a player and then flourished.
Maybe he’ll be better w/o the bad influence on next year.
Not that I’m sold on him as a starter a good offseason he stays on the bench.
except for TWill's leaping/jumping ability, Turner can already do everything else better.
But I would love to have both Turner and TWill. That is what a championship level team needs.
Nets fans better get use to having a good bench under Prokhorov.
They do resemble eachother to some extent, but i wouldnt go so far as to saying he is Turner. They are both verastile, good rebounders, and great passers, but offesnsively, Turner has the edge, athletically and physically TWill has the edge. Turner is more like a Rondo and TWill is more like a Jason Kidd
@ i says
In total agreement. T-Will’s game ABSOLUTELY reminds me of Kidd, which is why I’m not so quick to throw him under the bus in favor of Turner.
WHAT??
T-will reminds u of j kidd?? I like t-will but u guys are going totally over board williams is a good passer but no j kidd if u forgot jason kidd won rookie of the year!!! And i dont think turner is like rondo either turner is far better than rondo on offense nad is very good at rebounding but rondo is really a pest defensively and is much more of a prototypical point guard
Turner is sort of similar
…but is a far better shooter and a better ball handler. TWill is, of course, a better finisher at the rim. Both can play 1, 2, or 3, but Twill is more of a 3 and Turner more of a 2.
by calling all toasters on May 2, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Turner IS a great finisher at the rim, with the help of his Spin Move. If he misses, he usually gets his own rebound and finishes.
TWill only improved at finishing at the rim during the last 6 weeks of the year.
Thats a plus, why not have them both. The versatility would be having two oversized point guards on the floor at the same time allowing Harris to do the two things he does best. Score and play defense.
by Jid on May 2, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
TNT = "Explosive"!!!
What a wonderful problem to have: Turner/T-Will tandem.
But we have to remember it all starts with the drop of the ping pong balls.
T-Will got more run on the court the last 2 months
Kiki wanted to tinker with the Yi experiment most of the season. Then he finally realized that others should get playing time. At least that’s how I see it.
There is too factions here.
People that want Wall and people who don’t.
The group that don’t talk about Turner, Cousins and 4other players that the Nets could possibly get.
I certainly do not mind Wall, I just fail to see why he should be priority over Turner. You have to elite, and in my opinion potential superstars, one of them whom would be the ideal fit for this team, because of his ability to play the sf spot and handle the ball like a point guard taking pressure off of Harris and a ton off of Lee who has to concentrate on Ball handling this offseason. Because of this by the end of draft night in my opinion we should have Turner on our roster.
by Jid on May 2, 2010 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know anyone who doesn't want Wall; Just don't want to lose out on Turner and possibly lose Harris at same time.
That would be a lot of risk to take on pretty much sure things (Turner + Harris) vs. a Freshman John Wall.
Its not like Wall is of the impact of LeBron. Had LeBron played 1 year in College first, he would have been even more clear-cut first pick.
I agree. The combination of Harris and Turner, with a guy like T-Will as your sixth man, is more intriguing than Wall and a question mark trade/FA signing
by Jid on May 2, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
not a very inspired article
He starts off sounding very ho hum about Turner and by the end of the article he’s saying he’ll be the next Magic Johnson… say WHAT? It’s patently absurd. Others have made the comparisons to Grant Hill and I think that’s right on the money.
John Wall, by the way, seems like the kind of guy who really is going to be up to the challenge. He is showing a lot of maturity and leadership at a very early age. Even though Kentucky disappointed in the NCAA tourney, Wall and those other young guys had excellent chemistry.
Both this article favoring Turner as well as most of the articles favoring Wall aren't very thorough.
I just value the opinion of people like Steve Smith (who actually followed Turner for 3 years) more than nearly all of these sports columnists.
Actually, mine was
Your responses have been less so, unfortunately.
I’m looking for Steve Smith speaking on Turner so I can find out what he said, but can’t find anything. Care to provide a link?
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I requested NetsDaily find the short segment a few nights ago, when I posted it.
I wrote done some quotes and posted them here, but wished everyone should be able to watch the segment with Brent Barry, Steve Smith and the Analyst plus host. It should have been on the night of April 26.
SS said Turner will be a triple double threat every night, in the NBA.
A sort of argument for Turner
Dave Berri’s PAWS statistic is pretty good at predicting 1st year performance. This last draft he picked DeJuan Blair, Blake Griffin, and Ty Lawson to overachieve (relative to draft position) and Jonny Flynn and Gerald Henderson to underachieve.
Anyway, his numbers don’t speak well for Wall, as opposed to Cousins, Johnson, etc:
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/a-red-flag-on-the-wall/
BUT, his formula seems to undervalue PGs, despite his protest that it found Chris Paul to be “above average.” Points for understatement, I guess. And Tyreke Evans rated lower than Wall, so maybe the college game doesn’t produce the stats for PGs.
Also: Check out those numbers for Varnado! And we can probably get him with one of our later picks.
by calling all toasters on May 2, 2010 9:16 PM EDT reply actions
Dave Berri's metrics are generally awful
Many a renowned basketball statistician (Pelton, Oliver, etc) has deconstructed why his methods are wildly flawed.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
OK
But I can’t find college stats using their metrics.
by calling all toasters on May 2, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
Pretty much every statistician (or anyone who watched either play) could have told you Lawson and Blair would outperform their draft position.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, the fact that college PG's don't get flashy stats is something I discussed in my John Wall article
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 2, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Alternative view
Wall is a bright kid, an athletic freak and clearly has a high basketball IQ. He will be a star in the NBA. I want to see how he shoots in predraft workouts. He plays a position that is fairly well stocked in the NBA (quick pg). Small(ish) pgs rarely lead teams to championships. This last reason leads me to think Wall will be a great player, but will need a stud on his team to win a championship – he will not be "the man".
Turner is a bright kid, has a high basketball IQ and an incredible will to win. He will be a very good player in the NBA (star?). I want to see his measurables in the predraft combine – is he sneakly athletic like Roy, does he have the reach of a 6’9" player or a 6’5" player, etc. He plays a position (big 2 – scoring 3) that leads teams to championships. The last reason leads me to believe that Turner could be the more valuable long term asset. He could the "the man", the stud that you need to win a championship, but the risk is greater that he does not.
So take a low risk high reward Wall. Or take a higher risk very high reward Turner. Tell me we will get Lebron or Melo and I take Wall. Tell me Lopez will evolve into "that guy" and I take Wall. Those do not materialize and I would rather take the higher risk higher reward Turner option.
OJ Mayo?!
this article is wacky. you never know what the future holds but wall is light years ahead of mayo as far as basketball iq goes, if wall never shoots well he could still be jason kidd
^
Yeah, I couldn’t take this article seriously after it compared Wall to Mayo (two completely different types of players).
I love Turner but I think we have to go with Wall. I don’t think he’s the best athlete since Lebron James (Rose is an absolute freak) but I think he’s going to be a superstar. He plays with a passion that reminds me of Durant. He’s really focused on defense and uses his athleticism very well. I wish we saw more phenom games out of him (for example: Wall never put up big scoring numbers) but he often showed the ability to take over if necessary.
I think Kentucky was a good experience for him. He had good teammates, so he had to learn to trust them. He learned when to try and score, when to create for others, and when to simply defer. I think this is something Calipari’s other PGs still struggle with. I also love the fact that he’s really a true point guard. He isn’t just a PG because of his height. He knows how to run a team.
Wall is on Rose's level athletically,
which is something I never thought I’d say for a while. Rose is a better scorer right now, but Wall is a better floor general/ setup man, IMO. How well Wall scores depends entirely upon the work he puts in. More time in college for him would have given us a better idea of his overall performance.
But even with Rose, and some other good players, Chicago can't get past 1st round.
The last PG to lead a team to a Championship was Magic Johnson, and he had some good “role players” around him.
And a PG won’t be leading a team to a championship this year either.
It is doubtful Wall would lead a team to a championship, without other great players.
Let's count the amount of times Brandon Roy has been out of the first round
….well, that was quick.
It’s about the team, not one player. Yes, in the past 30 years it’s been necessary to have a dominant post presence (or Jordan) to win a title. But the game is changing. Between a new interpretation of hand-checking rules, continually wider spacing (much more so than in the NCAA), and a premium value on athleticism, the game is changing more and more to favor quick slashing guards with great court vision.
Also, the last PG to lead his team to a championship was Chauncey Billups.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 3, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Chicago can't get out of the first round
because they were dumb enough to choose Thomas over Aldrige, not so much because of Rose. They have no low post threat.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
The whole "positions" thing is stupid
i don’t care what position you play, no one can lead a team to a championship without other great players around them. Why don’t we just get some hobo of the street to play PG then since they play such a minor part apparently
Isiah Thomas?
John Stockton was stopped twice in the Finals by the best team ever.
Jason Kidd took a mediocre Nets team to the Finals twice.
Now, since you’re so, so, soooooooooooooooooooooo hot to pick SF Turner, let me ask you: when was the last time a team was led to the championship by a SF?
It was Bird, right?
by calling all toasters on May 3, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Turner will primarily be a SG.
I can think of Michael and DWade and Kobe. So Shooting Guards apparently win Championships if they are not a Dominant Big!
And Turner shouldn’t be considered equivalent to Brandon Roy. I expect him to be better than Roy overall.
Billups and Parker weren’t the dominating Franchise players. Wall is being called by his advocates as a “Franchise” player. Magic and probably Isiah Thomas were – way back. I’ll also concede JKidd even if he didn’t win a championship.
However, JKidd’s game is more like Evan Turner than John Wall. Turner “wills” teams to win, just as JKidd does. Wall is more of an uncertainty in that department and will probably take 1-2 years to adapt to NBA anyway.
The point is that a revived Devin Harris is “good enough” to win a championship in the NBA, just as Tony Parker and Billups are. Harris is that “slasher” who does well with the newer NBA game. No need to lose out on an Evan Turner. And Harris would have won that championship if not for an amazing DWade.
Wow.....
…some of the comments and the outright lack of objectivity from some in this thread are stunning.
I’m fine with either player because both would make this talent base better. I’d also be fine if we drop to three and we land Cousins. Personally, I prefer Turner because we need a legitimate star at either the two or three and Turner could become that, plus, I have always been a fan of 6’7 swingmen with his kind of skillset, added with his willingness to defend, take the big shots, and provide leadership. That doesn’t mean that i’d have a fit if we pick Wall over him. I just want the Nets decision to be based on their scouting, work outs, and common sense, and not based on the hype surrounding either player.
All of this nonsense about dismissing one player and saying that the other will be great, or that this one’s celing is Brandon Roy, or OJ Mayo, etc etc is silly. We DON’T know what they will become, we should all hope that whatever happens at the lottery and on draft night works in our favor.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
I wish we could predict...
…which one WON’T blow out a knee, break a foot or sustain some other rookie-season-ending injury. We have been very lucky with Lopez. I don’t want any more fragile players.
not "that" Jersey Shore...Point Pleasant, 10 refreshing miles north of Seaside.
by John at the Jersey Shore on May 3, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Draft Turner
keep Harris..thats what im hoping for. I think Turner plays like Brandon Roy but could be better because he’s bigger
agree
I think we should draft turner and keep harris, im not saying that because i think that wall is not a great talent, but the point guard position was not the problem with the nets, there problems were at PF and not having a consistent 2 or 3
IF we get number one, we must go John Wall! If we fall to the second pick, we grab Turner.
LETS GO NETS!
not true
i think we should get turner becuase he is a need (sg or sf) we dont need another point guard Devin Harris is still a very good point guard and can win in this league
Portland needed a big over a wing, they drafted Bowie over Jordan and Oden over Durant
Point is, picking need over talent will always be a draft-day sin.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 4, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, i didnt think of that
but i also think that john wall is alot of hype, evan turner had a dominant senior seaon at ohio st and won player of the year, i think john wall had a good year but not a great one
John Wall absolutely had a great year
The hype is not unwarranted. He really is just that good.
by Newark2Brooklyn on May 4, 2010 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Oden over Durant probably wouldn't have been a bad decision
except for the fact that Oden’s pre-draft physicals apparently were littered with red flags.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Ideal and realistic lineup for next year
Harris
Turner
T-WIll
David Lee/Carlos Boozer
Lopez
What do u guys think?
It is a toss up. Lets hope for a top two pick! I just think Wall, can be something very special. He has the tools to be a dominant floor general. Similar to what we had with Kidd in his prime. He might not rebound like Kidd, but, he far surpasses Kidd in athleticism, in effect, allowing him to drive to the basket much more frequently then Kidd did. If he can improve his shooting, the sky is the limit. I could be wrong, but, this reminds me a little of the year Kidd and Grant Hill came out in the draft together. Hill was and is a very good pro, but, Kidd was and is a hall of fame player. In fairness, I did not watch that much of Turner in college, so, maybe he can become a Dwayne Wade type player.
LETS GO NETS!
Actually Turner would be more like Jason Kidd in his prime (not Wall), because of his way to "will" a team to victory.
Of course Turner would be a better rebounder and scorer, shooter, shot blocking and finishing at the rim than Kidd.
In short, the best analogy for Turner would be a poor man’s cross between Magic and Kobe.
I agree with Claud below about Evan Turner:
http://www.netsdaily.com/2010/5/3/1456772/derrick-favors-or-evan-turner-for
These were not Turner’s best videos, but some of his shot blocking is truly remarkable. He is beyond Brandon Roy and will surpass Pippen.
Actually Turner would be more like Jason Kidd in his prime (not Wall), because of his way to "will" a team to victory.
Of course Turner would be a better rebounder and scorer, shooter, shot blocking and finishing at the rim than Kidd.
In short, the best analogy for Turner would be a poor man’s cross between Magic and Kobe.
I agree with Claud below about Evan Turner:
http://www.netsdaily.com/2010/5/3/1456772/derrick-favors-or-evan-turner-for
These were not Turner’s best videos, but some of his shot blocking is truly remarkable. He is beyond Brandon Roy and will surpass Pippen.
Well, Wall was a freshman and although he was not named player of the year, he was close to Turner. Turner was a senior, with more experience at the college level, therefore, he had the slight edge on Wall. However, give Wall three more years and I think he will be a much more complete player, in essence making him a beast! In addition, Wall was on a very good college team. He had players like Patterson and Cousins, so he did not need to carry the full load of the team to win. If he had to, he probably would have put up similar numbers to Turner.
LETS GO NETS!
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