New Data On Nets Attendance Woes Even Worse
There's some new data out on the Nets attendance this season and they're worse than even the dismal first read.
According to Sports Business Journal, not only did the Nets attract the fewest total fans (537,230) and per game (13,103). They also had the fewest as a percentage of arena capacity (69.1%), the smallest paid crowd for any NBA game this season (9,220) and were the only team that didn't sell out a single game. They also had the largest number of games in which the arena was filled to less than 75% of capacity--29 out of 41.
almost 2 years ago
Net Income
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And we wonder why
We’re moving to a City with 2.5 million people and direct access via 10 subway lines and the LIRR to the front of the arena.
-Say man when I was growing up we wanted a Jacuzzi, we had to fart in the tub.
I’m eagerly anticipating someone to reply with some absurd, far fetched reason as to why the Nets should be staying at the IZOD…. There’s bound to be someone…
'The Crossover' - a Nets and Knicks podcast. http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=268817312
I'm shocked!
People didn’t show up to see this 70-12 juggernaut?? Oops they were 12-70, my bad. When you start 0-18, you can pretty much bet no one will pay anything other than monopoly money to watch the massacres in person. Anyone who attended all the games this season is a masochist or has no other hobbies lol.
by TheMann2 on Apr 26, 2010 10:35 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Guess I'm a masochist
The the only bright spot was the absurdly cheap tickets on stubhub. I saw 5 games on the lower level for under $20 each
LOL
I’m shocked that even 1000 people or more showed up to watch this trainwreck. These numbers are actually encouraging.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
Nature vs. Nuture, NJ vs. BK, Apples and Oranges, Cause and Effect
There are a lot of things that contributed to the low attendance #‘s this season. Even before the season started.
1. Carter trade. Like it or not he put butts in the seats and provided scoring. He was our last remaining Star and face of franchise after Kidd was gone.
2. Lack of Stars. Despite having a talented young core. They don’t sell seats
3. Alienation of Fans. I give credit to Yormark for being invented with his marketing, but Jersey for Jersey thing was just a really bad idea. It attracted the wrong kind of fans to games from my perspective and it sent a bad message to the Nets fanbase.
Here is the equation
Owner tells fans in 2004 team will be moving + marketing jerk takes state name off everything related to team + President/GM trades all stars on the team + team becomes one of the worst in league history = the lowest attendance in the league.
What don’t you get Net Income? Were you expecting 41 sellouts for this complete, utter garbage we were treated to???
They still had one of the leagues
highest payrolls in 2007, no?
-Say man when I was growing up we wanted a Jacuzzi, we had to fart in the tub.
Yet people still
want to blame Ratner for the fall of the Nets
The man had a top payroll two years running.
Amazing, so amazing.
Thanks NI!
-Say man when I was growing up we wanted a Jacuzzi, we had to fart in the tub.
Do me a favor...
….name some of the names on those rosters, aside from Kidd, RJ, and Carter, who comprised the bulk of that top 7 payroll figure.
I understand your point, but lets not paint Bruce out to be some kind of saint here.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Apr 26, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Not saying he was a saint
but continued to pay the luxury tax
-Say man when I was growing up we wanted a Jacuzzi, we had to fart in the tub.
Yeah in that case the fault would lie on Thorn
which is why I don’t understand why he’s being allowed to engineer the team now.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
what the excuse for
2001-26th in attendance
2002- 26th in attendance
2003- 23rd in attendance?
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Truth
YankeeNets decided to post the actual turnstile counts instead of ticket sales. Lots of NBA teams inflate their attendance by reporting ticket sales, which are always higher because not everyone (esp. corporate types) don’t always show up for games.
wrong
all teams post ticket sales. I have seen the internals for the last season of YankeeNets and they too posted ticket sales.
The best way to describe the Nets problems is...
Cluster@#&!
Just about everything we’ve mentioned contributed to low attendance #’s .
Some good points made above regarding the obvious reasons for low attendance.
Question: is it ironic that the purported marketing guru Yormark is now associated with a horrible attendance result?
Did his actions save the team from worse results or make things worse?
Some things to think about, the team was obviously in tank mode from the day Vince was traded. (Unfortunately, for me I had already bought season tickets believing VC would be back and the Nets would upgrade at PF.). Yormark made the decision to not attempt to market any of the Nets players and to feature opposing players in the signature season promo. Seems that may have been a huge blunder.
Personally, I bought about 150 tickets (at low cost) for the year. I have not been contacted by the Nets at all and now my dollars are committed to the Jets for next season.
by ispartan on Apr 26, 2010 1:52 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Yormark Largely to Blame
Even aside from everything that has gone wrong since Ratner essentially stole the team (and it is a long list), Brett Yormark’s despicable marketing tactics have done more harm than good and have brought attendance numbers down even lower. If any surveying was actually done, Yormark would have known that the Nets fan base exists ALMOST ENTIRELY in New Jersey. So what does the guy do? Spits in the face of that fan base by telling them the team doesn’t really play in New Jersey anymore and in fact the team is known as “Nets Basketball” and not the New Jersey Nets. Brilliant!!!
I am not going to bother listing all the absurd tactics he has employed to try and put people in the seats to attempt to cover up for all the poor fan relations that have transpired under HIS watch. Top paying front row customers like Jerry Capece and the “Frozen Food King” and “The Israeli Builder” that have a place in Nets lure were chased away almost as soon as Ratner got the team and nothing Yormark did endeared them in the least to come back. This is to say nothing of the middle class customers like me that refused to put a dime in Ratner and Yormark’s pockets. I managed to still attend about 30 games + road games in the Ratner era but I made a point to buy tickets through alternative methods rather than directly through the team because of them.
that's silly
fans are largely to blame. They dont come out…havent for more than a decade.
Real New Jersey Nets fans buy tickets.
You can't...
….absolve nets ownership, past and present, from blame here.
The fact that the Nets played in the worst venue in pro sports had a LOT to do with the problems, nevermind the fact that this franchise was known as the Clippers east for years prior to Kidd being traded for Marbury.
I don’t know why fans who have supported this team for years are getting tossed under the bus and not a word is said about the history of the franchise in this state. Some people act like this team was the goddamned Lakers back in the 80s and 90s.
People aren’t going to show up if the product stinks. I’ve been a Nets fan since i was 11 years old back in 1991, and I’ll tell you I was the only kid at that time rooting for the Nets, everyone else I knew rooted for the Knicks. Why?
“Because the Nets suck”.
Out of the last 25 years, how many of those years could you apply that statement towards?
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Apr 26, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Again Net Income
where has the Brooklyn fan base been the last couple of years? Why haven’t they been filling the Meadowlands up? I guess next year they will be packing the Prudential Center making the trip from Brooklyn and Long Island right?
Pay attention, please
deal in facts. The plan, as laid out REPEATEDLY, is to give Manhattanites, particularly those in the financial district (25 minutes away by PATH), a look at the Nets.
As I stated above
tickets sales don’t mean anything if people don’t show up for games. YankeeNets decided to post actual turnstile counts during the Finals runs instead of ticket sales, which is why actual attendance #s for those years were as low as they are. Many NBA teams (including the Knicks) use tickets sales which are disingenuous statistics. Not saying the Nets would have led the league, but they wouldn’t have been as low as bottom-5.
and please don’t call my comments “silly”. I have been “warned” on this site for much less than that.
They are silly comments
this team was never supported.
The NBA Finals games you could come to the box office and they had 5k tickets for sale DAY OF GAME
-Say man when I was growing up we wanted a Jacuzzi, we had to fart in the tub.
Completely incorrect Netlogic
all 5 NBA FInals games the Nets hosted vs the Lakers and Spurs were SOLD OUT. The attendance figures for those games don’t match Meadowlands capacity because several sections of the arena were closed off for the increased media covering the event and therefore there was a lower total number of available seats to fans. Again, they were all sold out.
for crying out loud
Does it really matter now? I mean seriously. Just be thankful that you were able to go finals, because of that rather than harp on it.
Huh, if there were tickets available, I would have been there, my understanding was that tickets were not available due to the number held in reserve for the media and such
by ispartan on Apr 26, 2010 4:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I walked up to the box office
that day, game 4 Lakers/Nets and bought tix, same for the Spurs series…
-Say man when I was growing up we wanted a Jacuzzi, we had to fart in the tub.
I understand how you feel Logic
but you got to go to an NBA Finals game. Ateendance be damned you lucked out
I had no trouble getting tickets for any of the playoff games during the finals runs
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Apr 26, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Let the pissing contest begin..
NI vs. Issac for the souls of Netsdaily
I can’t in good conscience wholely blame Yormark or myself as a fan for the low attendance. This a complex problem with a lot of fault to go around. Stuff we’ve talked about for years here.
Like it or not you both have valid points about the Nets problems.
Ratner and Yormark are to blame
Before they came, the Nets actually did have very good attendance even when they were not much of a playoff contender. The reason was because the previous owner did not try to make them as a NY team when they were in NJ. Even the Devils were never marketed as a NY team. The second it was mentioned that Ratner watned to move the team to Brooklyn, fans started abandoning the team. Yormark was sorting adding salt to those wounds by trying to promote that pitch and claiming that the existing fan base was expendable and that those in Brooklyn could easily replace them just be being would should be the nation’s fourth largest city even though many of them are predominantely Knicks and would never convert to the Nets just because they are there. Neverheless, I have still attended Nets games, but this season it was mostly through special deals that would allow me to get them for a fraction of their actual price. Let’s not forget that before this season, the Nets always seemed to average more than at least one team that had a better winning record than they did. Two years ago, they averaged higher attendance than two playoff teams when they didn’t make it themselves. If you don’t believe than look at NBA attendance figures over on the ESPN website, because it shows it all there.
Thank you Tal
Once again – you get it. None of us have ever claimed the Nets were some runaway success. But despite Northen NJ showing love for the Knciks and South Jersey remaining Sixers country, the Nets built up a solid and loyal fans base throughout the past three decades and in many years was a middle of the pack attendance team despite some severe transportation and dining deficiencies related to the arena. Given the chance to move to an inner city Newark where those problems go away – this team would be highly successful. The problem is now moving there for two years on a lmae-duck bassis can’t possibly reflect that. The Jersey fan base is largely gone now thanks to Ratner and the Brooklyn folks aren’t exactly going to be flocking to Newark in the middle of the week for NBA games. If they even care at all, their support won’t come until the team actually shows up in Brooklyn witha completed arena. Even then, many longtime Knicks fans won’t be jumping ship. Bottom line is the Nets support was never as bad as some people are making it out to be on here prior to Ratner – I know, I was there since the early ’90s on a regular basis. And it would have been even greater had the team that Rod Thorn built from scratch had moved to Newark in 2007, joining another championship caliber organization that has not abandoned the state it plays in but rather has embraced it.
Don't buy from scalpers
I am not trying to advertise anything by saying, but this is something important. When you go to a number of prefessional sports facilities, you will hear an anouncement not to get any tickets from unauthorized sources otherwise known as scalpers. There is a good chance that the tickets they will be selling can either be lost, stolen, or even counterfit in which entry to a game might be denied for doing such a thing. Also, the tickets might be sold higher than their actual face value whether they are real or not. Please don’t make eye contact with them or even try to talk to them. On a sidenote, I once get a scalper to go away from me after I said that I would buy them for half because they probably weren’t real anyway and he walked away from me because he didn’t want to haggle. Overall, don’t buy from these people no matter what.
by Tal Barzilai on Apr 26, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
THE YORMARKRAT
Those above mentioned individuals have crushed the loyal NEW JERSEY NETS fanbase. WE were finally a relevant team with growing fan support after having three decades of losing basketball and they came in and ripped us off slowly and painfully over the last six years! We were a 12 win team this season, with most of those wins coming near the end of the season. Who in their right mind comes out to see a team on a weekly basis that was so god awful? We were flirting with being the worst team in NBA history! We had no big name stars on the team to draw casual fans to the games, thus can be seen, by the laughable marketing attempt by Yormark to offer reversable jerseys that ended up being a huge slap in the face to the real Nets fanebase. It wouldn’t surprise me if it didn’t offend those teams fanbases as much as it offended us by having the stars from their teams on our jerseys. Yormark, you were hired to market the NEW JERSEY NETS product, not, that of the competition! That was learned in Marketing 101.
Hey, maybe next year, you can have Yi wear a Duncan jersey DURING the game! In addition, we are still the NEW JERSEY NETS! Humor us New Jersey dumb folks, atleast, until the final move is complete. We WOULD like to see NEW JERSEY on our jerseys, home court, and merchandise! The point is, New Jersey residents still make up 90 percent of the Nets fanbase and most Brooklyn residents are not banging down the door looking to call the Nets their own. As can be seen, by the great turnout this year from all those who live in Brooklyn showing up at the games to support the team that you want to already call theirs.
LETS GO NETS!
At since 01- the highest the Nets ranked in attendance was 19th for 2 straight seasons (06-07 and 07-08) averaging about 16.895 for those 2 seasons. Those are decent #‘s. 08-09 We drop 21st . 09-10 We’re back where we started the at 26th in 01. And we all know what happened this year. Gee i wonder what happened starting in 08-09?
Amen Justin!
Your comments on here are beyond refreshing and much welcomed. You stated the facts my friend. And yes Yormark – humor us will you?? Try marketing the team to NEW JERSEY as long as it is playing in Newark. At least try and pave the way for a miraculous relocation of another team to Newark since you and the big fat Rat are very close to stealing the one we currently have. Put New Jersey back on the merchandise so actual Nets fans can have buy and keep some souvenirs of OUR team. Burn those hideous red road jerseys and please once and for all cut out this ’Nets Basketball" garbage. No other team in the league insults its fans by disguising where it plays – it is despicable! And most of all Yormark – PLEASE GET LOST. Thank you again Justin for your post.
Isaac, Tal, Justin...
Considering you all conveniently ignored Gina’s post, here it is again….
What the excuse for
2001-26th in attendance
2002- 26th in attendance
2003- 23rd in attendance?
In the two years WE WENT TO THE NBA FINALS, our attendance was – at best – 23rd best in a league of 30 teams. Yes, this is all on Brett Yormark…. pfff…. give me a break.
'The Crossover' - a Nets and Knicks podcast. http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=268817312
Rome wasn't built in day
Just because a team starts to play better doesn’t mean that folks will start coming to games. It takes time. No one can deny that Nets attendance grew after. With it’s peak being 2 straight seasons being ranked 19th in attendance. By that time the Nets had build enough trust with fans. But we all knew what happened after that. Kidd gone, RJ gone, Carter gone. attendance #‘s after that 21th, 26th, 30th. I wonder if there’s coincidence?
RUSTY!
you are conveniently ignoring some facts too. During this time the Nets had a policy of giving out ZERO free tickets – not even to friends and families of employees – I know this on good authority. This is something that very few IF ANY NBA teams do. The NBA is not the NFL and giving out some comps is essential to putting people in the stands in most markets.
Not to say the Nets would have been in the top 5 in attandance with Kidd but they certainly would have been middle of the pack like they were for most of their NBA existence. Had a Jason Kidd-led team moved to Newark in 2007 with somemomentum, it is OBVIOUS the Nets would be highly successful in Newark. Only the staunch Brooklyn supporters on here don’t want to believe that and I AM STILL waiting for one of you to explain to me who the fan base for this team is if not for New Jersey. Where is the passion from Brooklyn?? Why havent they been flocking to the Meadowlands. Will they be making Nets games in Newark sellouts next year???
How about some answers Rusty, Net Income, GIna, etc. etc. etc???
I think, in a way, you’re answering your own query. “Where is the passion from Brooklyn?? Why haven’t they been flocking to the Meadowlands?…” Maybe because it couldn’t be more inconvenient to get to (the Swampzod may as well be 100 miles away) and because the place is a 29-year-old dinosaur.
To answer your other question… yes. I do fully expect a number of sellout games next season and if the Nets aren’t in the top 15-20 in attendance, I’ll be surprised.
'The Crossover' - a Nets and Knicks podcast. http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=268817312
You just proved the point of Jersey fans
We also agree that Izod is difficult to access for the majority of fans… and we live in Jersey. You CANNOT compare the Meadowlands to Newark. It’s not a fair statement to say just because the Nets didn’t draw well in the Meadowlands that the same will happen in Newark.
Transit hub near PABT
You are aware that there are a number of subway lines that stop near the PABT that include either at 42nd St-Times Sq (N, Q, R, S, W, 1, 2, 3, 7) and 42nd St-PABT (A, C, E), plus there is even a free transfer between them.
by Tal Barzilai on Apr 26, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Subway lines near PATH and NJ Transit
There are also a number of subway lines that can be used to access to either the PATH or NJ Transit.
NJ Transit: 34th St-Penn Station (A, C, E, 1, 2, 3)*
PATH Midtown Branch: 34th St-Herald Sq (B, D, F, V, N, Q, R, V, W), 23rd St-6th Ave (F, V), 14th St-6th Ave (F, L, V)
WTC PATH: Cortland St-WTC (R, W, 1)*, Chambers St-Church St (A, C), WTC (E), Park Pl (2, 3)
(*) = No free transfer between lines
by Tal Barzilai on Apr 26, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
While I am at it
Since the Prudential Center is in walking distance of both Newark-Penn Station and Newark Broad St, people can get here all over NJ for Nets game from just about all over the state of NJ.
NE Corridor: Can be taken from either Trenton or NY-Penn Station to Newark-Penn Station.
Montclair-Boonton Line: Can be taken from either Hackettstown or NY Penn Station to Newark-Broad St, though transfer can be made at Secause Junction for Newark-Penn if comming from NY-Penn Station.
Morristown Line: See Montclair-Boonton Line.
Gladston Branch: Can be taken from Gladstone to Newark-Broad St.
Raritan Valley Line: Can be taken from High Bridge to Newark-Penn Station.
Main Line: Can be taken from Pt Jervis to Secacus Junction for transfers to lines going to Newark Penn-Station.
Bergen County Line: Can be taken from Glenn Rock-Borough Hall to Secacus Junction for transfer for lines going to Newark-Penn Station.
Pascack Valley Line: Can be taken from Spring Valley to Secacus Junction for trasnfers to lines going to Newark-Penn Station.
North Jersey Coast Line: Can be taken either from Bay Head or Hoboken Terminal to Newark-Penn Station.
River Line: Can be taken from Entertainment Center to Trenton with transfer to NE Corridor for Newark-Penn Station.
Atlantic City Express Line: Can be taken from Atlantic City to Newark-Penn Station.
PATCO: Can be taken from either 15-16th Locust St or Lindenwold to Broadway for transfer to River Line (see River Line for more).
PATH: Can take from either 33rd St or WTC to Newark-Penn Station.
Newark City Subway: Can take from either Grove St or Borad St for Newark-Penn Station.
by Tal Barzilai on Apr 26, 2010 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't
That’s considered part of the Newark City Subway according to nycsubway.org, though PATCO and the Atlantic City Line of NJ Transit are considered part of Philly rather than NYC, plus Trenton can also by reached by the R7 line of SEPTA.
by Tal Barzilai on Apr 27, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
How is it obvious
especially when I responded to your opinion in th eother post, that the leader of group you were heralding that was considering moving them to Newark went to jail for 2 years about a year after he lost out on the Nets. How exactly would a team who’s owner was in jail for tax evasion and paying massive fines have put the nets in a better situation? In they end they would have just had to sell again.
On top of that now that he’s out he’s abandoned New Jersey to focus on New York real estate operations.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Wrong person
The jailed investor was named Kushner. The Nets owner that now is part of the Brooklyn delegation is named Lewis Katz.
Um what are you talking about?
Kushner is the guy who planned on keeping them in NJ who Issac and Tal reference in all of their posts that lost out to Ratner.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Oh Rusty, the key was the attendance for playoffs and Finals! Those were near capacity or sold out. I was at every single one of the games! In addition, there was a buzz that this franchise had never experienced. I heard it and saw it. There were more Nets jerseys being sold then probably all three of our previous decades combined. If you read my comment in the beginning, we were a losing franchise much of the first three decades of our existance, thus, New Jersey residents were not given much to root for. You do not build fanbases by losing. You must win! ie, Lakers, Celtics or more local to us the Yankees. If you see by the years following the Finals appearances, we were slowly rising in fan support until we the fans realized that the team was slowly being dismantled by the ownership. And although I enjoyed my time attending the games at IZOD, we all have concluded that its location was not the most convenient for those who could not drive. In addition, it did not help that they started to build that monstracity known as the Xanadu for those who preferred to drive. The construction site around the arena did make some what difficult to navigate the surrounding arena grounds. Thus, we should have permanently moved to Newark with the Devils for a fair shake to see attendance improvements. Instead, we are continuously belittled as a fanbase.
LETS GO NETS!
And yes Justin
the palyoffs games from the Conf Semis, Conf. Finals and NBA Finals were mostly sellouts if not near sellouts – I was at 15 or so playoff games during the Kidd era and at most there were 2000 empty seats at those games – and those were either 1st Round or Conference Semifinals games. Not to mention – the place was LOUD and ROCKING. I have the vcr tapes to prove that and I still watch some of those classic games from time to time.
And yes Justin you are correct – Newark does deserve a fair shake with the Nets, not the lame-duck two season joke that Yormark is trying to sell as some kind of favor to us – the fans.
depends on how you look it
Sorry Issac, I’m more of a Glass half full person. I don’t see the move to Newark as joke. I see it as beginning. Regardless of what Yormark tries to sell, real fans will come out and support them. Because they’re real fans.
To follow up. I don’t want the Nets leave either, but we have to prove that there’s something here. The NBA is results driven, passion isn’t enough to keep a team. The fans Need to prove the Naysayers wrong by coming out and support
to be quite honest I'm not particularly enthused about them moving to Brooklyn
just because that arena looks like an obnoxious eye sore and it seems more like the team is going to be used as some part of a corporate machine than as a separate entity with it’s own identity.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Why back it then?
Gina, if you know that the Nets are nothing but Ratner’s trojan horse for a mega project, then why not fight it instead of just supporting it anway?
by Tal Barzilai on Apr 26, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not supporting it anyway
really at this point I’m just indifferent because each option seems less than ideal. I don’t mind the move to Brooklyn because of the financial advantage I just wish it didn’t come at the cost of basically removing any character from the team. At the same time while a team in Jersey may feel more “homey”, that’s not the right word but I can’t think of it, I also doubt they would ever cease hemorrhaging money. Even when they were in the finals they were losing money at ridiculous rates that’s why the YankeeNets sold the nets and devils.
Truthfully if the Barclay deal fell through and they stayed in Newark I’d be happy, if the Barclay deal doesn’t fall through and they move to Brooklyn I’ll be happy as long as they’re actually committed to winning and reinvesting the money back into the franchise. If the Barclay deal fell through but they still moved to NY but sold to more likable owners who were actually totally interested in the franchise (and not just what the franchise could do for them), and got the financial advantage without becoming part of some corporate machine I’d be estatic.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Included in the fact that YankeeNets sold their ownership stake was that
Jersey didn’t want to put taxpayer money behind an arena in Newark. It was taking too long to get financing from the State. YankeeNets sold their holdings. The Devils went to another Jersey guy; the Nets were sold in a sham process to Ratner after Corzine/ Kushner offered a higher bid.
My point is that YankeeNets sold, but because they couldn’t get the State to help out with an arena, not simply because they were losing money.
Um Corzine and Kushner didn't offer a higher bid
Ratner offered all his money up front Kushner offered 200 million up front and 100 million over the next like ten years. Which is not a higher bid by any means, not to mention they wanted the tax payers to foot 25 million of the bill which is what never got approved. Exactly what math are you getting that leads you to them offering a higher bid basic economics tells you 200 up front and 100 million over ten years is not worth more, or even the same, as 279 up front.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Not to mention even if it was higher
which, it wasn’t. I imagine once he was having his assets frozen paying hefty tax evasion fines and spending two years in jail he probably would have had to sell himself. Plus he’s since abandoned the NJ market for NY too. So it seems likely a move would have occurred anyway.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
It was fixed from the start
and tell me how could Ratner offer all of his money up front when YankeeNets had to maintain 20% of the team after Ratner bought the team, then had to shop around and find investors for the remaining piece? In other words, he offered up a bid up front, money which he never had. Sounds alot like AY, where he had to convince the State to take properties via eminent domain for SPORTS ARENA! Unheard of! I followed this when it happened; you’re picking up bits and pieces from what you read online, which means you’re not getting the full picture.
R-D...
glas half-full is fine although with this team I don’t see how that is possible anymore. Regardless of that you must still consider facts and one of them is that Yormark continues to market this team as “Nets Basketball” without a trace of “New Jersey” anywhere while the team plays in Newark. Therefore, the many New Jersey Nets fans that no longer pay attention to this team will not be flodding the turnstiles in Newark on a 2-year temporary basis knowing full well the team is still planning to abandon the state and become the Junior Knicks in NYC and will not even have the decency to treat the remaining New Jersey fans with any respect while the team still plays there. All this being said, unless the team signs a legitimate superstar in July or continues to give out massive amount of tickets and 2 for 1 deals, it is very unlikely that Newark will be successful as a lame-duck host to the Nets. Those are all facts sorry to spill out what remained in your half-full glass.
You didn't spill my glass.
I want the Nets stay in NJ. I want NJ on the uniform. There’s no denying what Ratner is and what Yormark has done to alienate the fanbase. but i just see a different path of resistance than you do.
ok so we have some common ground
do you not see my point about how difficlut it will be to fill up the arena in Newark when so many NJ fans are tuned off for the reasons you just conceded to me and due to the fact that Brooklynites won’t be trekking out to see this team as long as it’s in Jersey either? Come on, you seem very reasonable.
I see Brooklyn for what it is, a land grab from a developer looking to make a buck. He doesn’t care about the Nets, that’s been obvious from the beginning.
We as fans have a right to be angry about what’s happened to the Nets. When I first started posting here, NI said Newark would never work and still continues talk about the the lack of fans here, but by not supporting them you’re only validating the things NI says about Jersey and it’s fans. If we can’t support the NJ Nets, then we justify all the Ratner and Yormark have done to alienate us.
It’s amazing what change of venue can do. During the Preseason games in Newark, even NI had to admit that there was a different atmosphere. There was different feeling and everyone felt it. It caused the nets to even play differently.
I am reasonable. I know that the nets have lost a lot fans due to what’s happened, but still hold a little bit of hope that the Nets can stay in Jersey if we support them over the next 2 years.
That is fair R-D
And I agree – we should support the team in Newark. My problem is that as long as the team markets itslef as “nets Basketball” and not the New Jersey Nets, we will not get a fiar accounting of how successful the Nets could and would be in Newark. As long as New Jersey is told “don’t get used to this, the team is outta here”, there is very little hope for strong turnouts in Newark – not saying this is what I want but rather what I expect. What i’d like to see is 18,000 strong next year chanting “Let’s Go Nets” like we did in the good ‘ol days and for Stern to finally see New Jersey isn’t the problem but rather how the team has been marketed along with the lack of public transportation and dining options we have endured all these years despite my affection for the old barn.
Relax Isaac
There will be no move to Brooklyn. I’ve said it many times. This is for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that the project is ill-conceived and will never make any money.
Morph- I hope you are right...
with all i’ve got but I just don’t see how it is possible that this won’t go through at this point. The construction has essentially begun. I hope you have seen or know something that I don’t and that this arena will still fall through.
I can't say I have seen or know something, per say.
What I CAN say is that from the moment I heard the Nets might be considering a move to Newark back in 1998, I have been eagerly following the progession of events (needless to say a lot of frustration has built within me over that time frame).
As a result, I’ve learned alot about sports and it’s interaction with local politics as well as arena financing and the technical aspects (financial and engineering-related) that tend to hold up a project of this kind. In short, this is my opinion of AY and Barclays in particular: it has no chance of ever being completed as planned. Over the past 11 eleven years of plans from the Nets, Barclays and it’s tie-in with AY is the worst plan I’ve ever seen regarding a sports arena, bar none.
The last seven years of dawdling in BK says alot in and of itself, such as the “public support” this project is purported to have is flimsy at best. Bloomy and Patterson have never been staunch cheerleaders of this project, despite a word or two here or there. The AY site is an engineering mess and the price to actually construct the arena (currently at slightly over $800MM) is likely well over $1BN. An arena in N. America usually is built for no more than $400MM, in order to make a profit for the teams and keep debt at a reasonable level. In other words, ain’t no way Barclays can turn a profit in our lifetimes. I won’t even get into building a pad over rail yards owned by a public entity! You could easily add $200-$300MM to the price tag just for the right to build over them. This is a concept called “air rights”, something that would have been employed if the Jets ever built their West Side Stadium next to the Javits Center. But I digress substantially.
Security is another concern. Siting this arena on the major intersection in downtown BK over or near a rail yard is an invitation to an extremist attack, and warrants an entire closure of the intersection by law enforcement. If you’ve been to the Prudential Center, you’ve already seen this in action. Mulberry St. and Edison Pl. are cordoned off during events. The difference between the Rock and Barclays is that the siting of Barclays means that Flatbush Ave. & Atlantic Ave. would have to be closed to traffic during any event. In the immortal word of Wallce Shawn in the Princess Bride, that is simply “INCONCEIVABLE!” Access to Barclays by car has never truly been debated publicly. Who would want to drive there, even if you live in BK? Broken promises by Ratner run aplenty. The fact that the arena can only support a single major professional sports team (NBA only, not NHL) is a major SNAFU in the planning. Despite what some speculate on this site, no NHL team could ever get a reasonable crowd into such a tight space. And two-team arena draw far and away more money than one-team counterparts, simply because they shuffle and share fans (b-ball fans will go see a hockey game once in awhile and vice-versa, bringing in more regular revenue for both franchises while simultaneously paying down arena debt service much quicker. I could go on, but my fingers are beginning to ache.
Sorry, one other point – once the Prudential Center was built and operational, Barclays Center lost it’s raison d’etat. It is not wise to have too many of the same type of facility in one region, even a region as vast and wealthy as the Metro area. The simple reason – there aren’t enough events or acts to go around to consistently fill the space. If I had to guess, I’d say the next b-ball/ hockey arena to be built in this area will be to replace MSG. The Knicks need a new place to make money and I’m sure the City would love to redevelop the current Garden site into office towers that bring in much more revenue via property taxes.
Otherwise, I’d say my opinion is merely an educated guess, nothing more.
Great synopsis Morph
And again I sure hope you are right. You should write an essay on this subject for the fan posts – many of us would love to read it and many others could benefit from it hopefully.
Excuse me
Rusty, I have been to every Nets home game when the made the 2003 NBA playoffs all the way to the 2003 NBA Finals against the Spurs, and every game was a sellout for the most part. Part of that reason was because the Nets were a top seed at the time, so of course they would get higher attendance. I have seen block parties before every home game in that year as well on how popular the Nets were. When the Nets acquried JKidd via a trade on Marbury, they played better because of his assists and triple doubles. I too can remember what is was like to be a Nets fan before they made it to the NBA Finals, because most of those who were Knicks fans would say how bad the team was for having such subpar players. Some of them even gloated at me when the Knicks won the series against the Nets in the 1994 Eastern Confrence Quarterfinals. However, it didn’t stop me from liking the Nets. As for the claim on attendance, their drop wasn’t that big of a margin, and if you really want a huge freefall in attendance from the previous, then I suggest you look at the 76ers who hold that record for it, because the Nets are nowhere near that. Just hearing that, makes the Nets fall in attendance nothing compared to that. BTW, that was from look at the seasons on the ESPN attendance figures. Overall, teams that have a history of winning seasons are usually at the top, while those that don’t are at the bottom. I am surprised that this season the Nets didn’t have higher attendance than any team that did better than they did, but that was mainly because of their record. Nevertheless, I can’t see how a fan base for the Nets can exist in Brooklyn when they have been Knicks fans since the day the NBA started.
Just a quick note on the ESPn attendance
Just in case anyone did realize it the espn attendance chart reflects the year the season ended, So 2001 reflects the 2000-01 season not the 2001-02 season.
yes, no significant improvement in attendance
between a team that finished with 26 wins and one that finished with 52 wins.
76ers fell much more
If you look at the attendance figures between 2005 and 2006, the 76ers went from 10th to 21st place in home attendance, which was a total of 11 spots, making it a huge freefall from the previous season.
by Tal Barzilai on Apr 27, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Just look at the pattern
Like I said before. fans don’t automatically start coming out just because the team starts doing better. If you look at the attendance. you see a pattern. The nets start to built a consistency in attendance
00-01: 13806
01-02: 13760 ( a .3% drop)
02-03 15184 (10% increase that’s a huge jump)
03-04: 14952 (1% percent drop)
04-05: 15089 (.9 % increase)
05-06: 16866 ( 11% increase another huge jump)
06-07: 16925 (.3% increase)
07-08: 15656 ( 7% drop Kidd traded)
08-09: 15147 ( 3% drop RJ traded)
09-10: 13103 (13% drop Carter traded)
NI what is your measure of significant change improvement. It seems to me that there was change
Moving forward
It seems the Nets were headed in good direction attendance wise before the team got dismantled. The #‘s weren’t stellar given the IZOD’s size, but there was growth. You also have to take into account what was happening in league that those years. Even though the Nets were 23rd in 02-03
they were back to 26th 03-04. There was only a difference of 232 people. What happened in 03-04? Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Carmelo Anthony, and Chris Bosh. If you look at 02-03 seasons the Cavs were 29th, Nuggets 25th, Heat 22nd, Raptors were 10th. in 03-04 Cavs were 9th, Nuggets 12th, Raptors 8th, and Heat dropped to 24th, but they still had a slight increase in attendance.
Moving Forward
With Nets in the lottery this year and all signs pointing to John Wall and the adding of possible 1st or 2nd tier free agent attendance will go back up. But again I have to ask NI, what your measure of improved attendance
R-D,
thanks for this, it is maybe the first post on attendance that makes sense to me
my takeaway is that stars draw fans in NJ. There were significant increases that coincide with Kidd and VC joining the team and corresponding decreases when they left. It appears that VC sold more tickets than Kidd.
I don’t think it would be a stretch to conclude that the Nets could do well in Newark if The Nets can sign a couple of star players
by ispartan on Apr 27, 2010 10:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
There was growth for ONE year then stable then up for ONE
It stabilized….but it never got higher than 20th. There was no trend…none.f The drop in 2007 may have had to do with the tabloid coverage of the
Kidds marriage as well as the bad record.
And I would suggest the 11% jump in 2005-06 corresponds with the Nets marketing efforts…as well as the second best record in team history.
YankeeNets were so bad at marketing that during the 2002 playoffs the NBA had to take over the halftime…it was that bad.
What's you measure
Again NI keep asking what’s your measure? Who or what are you comparing the nets growth to? What were your expectations? Growth is growth right?’ There’s growth then stabilization and then there’s more growth. That’s seems like a trend to me.
I think the drop had to do with more Kidd getting traded than it did with his off the court problems. I partially agree about the marketing, but in essence a competitive team sells itself to the fans more than a marketing guru does.
I stand corrected
I ran the #’s for 07-08 While for the 27 home games before Kidd was traded the Nets avg. about 15379 fans game. While the last 14 home games they average about 16,183. But I still maintain that there was a trend
Take a look at this
http://databasebasketball.com/teams/teamatt.htm?tm=NJN&lg=n
This a chart shows since the Nets moved back to NJ until 08-09 season. I see trend does anyone else.
Look NI, I know that the #‘s don’t blow you away. But you can see that there’s been continued growth ever since they came back to NJ
Here’s another site to look at
http://www.apbr.org/attendance.html
Even as the NY Nets the highest they ever managed to draw was 10,654. If you compare attendance to the Knicks during that time, the numbers don’t even come close, They were smothered.
When they moved back to Jersey in 77 was the best thing for the team. Initially the #‘s weren’t great, but you can see a continual growth in attendance.
I don’t expect the Net’s to get the Lion’s share of the market, but They certainly carved out a niche for themselves
Please keep in mind
that actual turnstile #s are reported now. I know I’m repeating myself, but that’s important. Before YankeeNets decided to change how attendance is reported, the Nets relied on ticket sales (like many teams). As we all know, not everyone shows up for a game even if they bought a ticket. This is especially true of corporate purchasers that have the money to blow but may not always be interested in going to the game each night.
The idea from YankeeNets was to show the State how playing in the Meadowlands (not NJ, because YankeeNets wanted to move the team to Newark) was hurting attendance. And they were right in doing so. If there was a dip after we improved, it is directly affected by this decision.
They won't listen Morph
Any positive info about the New Jersey fan base that was getting better and better will be ignored or shouted down by the pro-Ratner/Brooklyn/Corporate Machine. I have tried to present facts over and over on here, it gets us nowhere. That being said, I APPRECIATE your posts and i’m sure others such as Justin and Tal do too – so please keep them coming! Let’s fight to keep our New Jersey Nets!!!
I think it's funny that despite bringing it up in two threads
you still haven’t responded to the fact that the leader bidding group you claimed would have led to a thriving team in Newark spent 2 years in jail and has sense abandoned the New Jersey real estate market.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I assume you're addressing me and not Isaac
I didn’t respond to that point because it is moot at this point, especially once I explained to you Ratner never even had the money he promised to buy the team at the time. It simply didn’t seem important to me to respond. But since you re-hashed the subject, I shall placate you with a response.
Actually, I believe Jon Corzine was the lead bidder, with Kushner backing him up. Both of them had the financing to buy the team, unlike our current empty-pocketed owner. If Kushner (who I have not followed since his imprisonment) chooses to dabble in NY real-estate, well God be with him. I would assume he went to NY to try to make money because he is well known in Jersey politically and no one would have wanted to work with him, considering the stain on his reputation in this State. Perhaps it was best that Kushner didn’t end up buying the team, but he was not in any trouble with the law at the time of the bidding. That would not have affected the purchase if Corzine/ Kushner had won.
At the risk of sounding arrogant, I would advise you not to challenge me on the issue of the Nets’ move. I CLEARLY know more than you do on this topic. The only person who can challenge me in this regard is NI, and I can poke holes in his arguments as well. Just admit you didn’t have all of the facts and move on. Isn’t that why we visit this site? Because we’re fans and know alot, but there’s always someone else with a different perspective or information the rest of us don’t know about? I don’t know very much about NBA contracts and foreign player prospects. So I ask questions and read what others know. However, I DO know alot about Newark v. Meadowlands v. Brooklyn and the history. Let’s just try and let this end, and if I attempt to correct you in this way in the future, don’t take it personally. It isn’t personal on my end. And you can correct me if you have info I don’t have info on other topics. And I’ll promise to not take it personally as well.
No it wasn't to you it was to Issac
he was the one who kept brining it up in the other thread, I was just responding to his point.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Maybe I am missing something, but the most relevant attendence data is Total Gate Receipts, adjusted for inflation.
How can we tell how much Yormarket has increased attendance with giveaways, unless we know true gross revenue.
I suspect if we knew that information, things would be even worse.
However, to turn things around begins with putting together a team that will win 50 games next year – something that WILL happen if Nets are able to Add Turner, DLee and RGay, for sure (Unless Thorn is confident that a worthwhile FA would be signed in 2011).
Then everything will fall in place, unless Nets try to get “cute” by keeping someone like Yi around as a promotion, taking up $5 million in cap space after next season.
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