Kidd-Harris Debate Up for Renewal
by Net Income on Apr 26, 2010 7:01 AM EDT
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PrintIt's only a matter of time before the debate begins again.
With the Mavericks down 3-1 to the Spurs and looking winded and old, the question is this: was the Jason Kidd - Devin Harris trade lopsided...and which way.
Last year, Harris made the All-Star team, and Nets fans serenaded Mark Cuban with "Thank You, Cuban" during a 41-point Harris outburst vs. his old team...and Kidd. This year, the roles were reversed. Harris was plagued by injuries, pummeled by fans and the Nets had one of the worst seasons in NBA history. Kidd on the other hand used his guile to lead the Mavs to 55 wins. Now, though, he and Dallas are suffering through what so far has been a frustrating first round.
A look at team goals at the time of the trade has to be part of the debate. Cuban thought Kidd could lead his team back to the Finals, but it looks like they'll be exiting after Round 1 for the second time in three years. Rod Thorn, on the other hand, wanted to get younger, pick up cap space and dump a player whose off-court shenanigans had landed him on the front page of tabloids far too often. Beyond Harris, the Nets were able to use pieces of the trade to get Courtney Lee (via Ryan Anderson) and Keyon Dooling (via a trade exception and $3 million in cash) and they still have the Mavs pick in this year's draft.
- Spurs playing like anything but 7th seed against Mavs - Art Garcia - NBA.com
- Mavericks Facing Big Uphill Climb - Marc Stein - ESPN
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From the Nets side
it’s ridiculous to even question this move.
Jason Kidd is a PRIMA DONNA and a CLASSLESS JERK who worked his way outta here. Heck, the guy even faked a migraine bc we didn’t want to re-sign him and let his team down. It was hilarious that the guy asked for a pay raise when he was dogging it to begin with.
Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE Jason as a player. He’s one of my fave players of all time, and I will ever appreciate what he did for our franchise, but this getting rid of him was the right thing to do.
Devin Harris will never be the player Kidd was, BUT he’s young, has a reasonable contract and is an AS caliber talent. For those who question if you can win with him, let’s remember he was the starting PG for a Mavs team that made it to the NBA Finals and then had one of best records in the history of the game. Not saying he led them there, which he obsiously didn’t, but he contributed and that shows you can win with him being your PG.
And don’t forget that last year, with a better environment, Harris abused guys like Kidd, Deron Williams and Steve Nash, all of them Nets wins. I always said you can’t give him the keys to the car, and that has been proven right, but the fact that he isn’t a franchise player like Kidd was doesn’t mean he can’t be a nice piece for our future and very good player on a winning team.
they overpaid VC, Kidd had every right to stick his hand out
He only took the team from laughing stock to the finals.
He’s only a future Hall of Famer who gave it all on the court.
Too bad we didn’t get a ring out of his stay.
VC was worth that money, they didn't overpay him
And don’t forget that, when JKidd was a FA at the same age when the Nets gave VC that extension, we signed Jason to an absolute max contract. Kidd was 35, he was dogging it, and the guy had the nerve to ask for a bloated extension? Give me a break.
They should have traded him
because of age cost and injured, if a guys been missing around 20 games a season in his early 20s. he’s only going to get more injury prone as he ages, especially with his style of play. If next year he misses significant time because of injuries again he’s going to be incredibly hard to move because teams are going to be looking at him as a ten million dollar point guard who can only work in certain systems, because of his lack of shooting(which is another reason the Mavs moved him), it’s going to be hard for him to work in a half court team with a big man, or a team who has better slasher type scorers, and who is likely to miss 20+ games.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I would've let VC walk if we couldn't get anything for him
No other team was looking to sign him…They signed Vince and a year later traded Kidd, then RJ and last of all Vince himself bc the team was bleeding green.
Some would say Vince was dogging it…nevermind it’s water under the bridge.
Net edge
While Kidd still has the current talent edge imo, Harris will be around longer and the cap space and pick could make this trade a clear Net winner. Lee and Dooling are useless evident by our 12-70 record.
not a Net gain
Jason Kidd was by far the greatest Net ever.
Jason Kidd stayed when he was free agent instead of joining Duncan
His Leadership was the glue to any greatness our franchise ever saw
Ratner’s bad ownership and Thorns lousy drafts and pickups
drove Kidd out
Kidd should have finished his career a Net (7 million this year is 4 mil less than
Simmons)
and then been our next coach
Thanks for your input Jason Kidd’s mom.
Only his mother could be so one-eyed in support of the guy. He’s no saint. His previously STELLAR Nets career was completely marred by his final twelve months with the team (which Andres covered).
'The Crossover' - a Nets and Knicks podcast. http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=268817312
Very good post Henry
You seem to get it. So many “Nets fans” seems to have no memory as to just how brilliant Kidd was on a night to night basis. He was everything. We had no coach after Byron (admittedly his fault) and it didn’t even matter. He made every player on the roster better and took the team to heights unfathomable before his arrival.
I agree that Kidd's contributions were unparalleled, but ....
This is the first (and probably the last) time I actually agree w/ Isaac. Kidd’s contribution to this team are unparalleled. I mean the man took us to back to back NBA finals appearances. That was the most exciting Nets basketball I’ve ever seen.
That said, the Devin Harris trade was a good one. The team was never going to get back to that elite level and had to begin rebuilding. I’d rather tear it all down and have a chance to build a champion, as opposed to being mediocre while my “stars” just got older and richer.
Contract Extension
I think people don’t remember the fact that he would have walked after his contract was over since the Nets were not willing to extend his contract and the Mavs were. Anything he does for the Mavs after the original contract was up shouldn’t be factored in the “who won the trade” debate since he would have never been doing it in a Nets jersey anyway.
Critical Success!
good point
but were the Nets were unwilling to extend his contract because they thought he was done or because they couldn’t afford it…or both?
This answer will only come
when the Nets use the first rounder this year. If they get a starter for this price then we win hands down.
If the Nets are blessed and win the Lottery things really could go our way. Think about it. We trade Devin Harris and the Mav’s pick for a lottery pick this year. Nets will win in a landslide.
Nets edge
because of future considerations, but Mavs are getting what they wanted from kid. Yes they’re down 3-1, but that’s not J Kidds fault. SA is playing out of there minds right now, everthing is clicking for them. With the way they’re playing SA could be up 3-1 on anyone in the league right now (well Dallas is lacking defensively…).
Anyway, DH is good enough with flashes of great as a PG. The other pieces of that trade and the Dallas pick in this deep draft push this to the nets,which considering Kidd is a HOF PG still putting up triple doubles, is a good thing.
This is a dumb debate
it was a good trade for both sides. We weren’t going anywhere with Kidd. Plus at that point no one was expecting him to suddenly be able to knock down a jump shot consistently. Even if we don’t keep Harris his contracts a valuable trade asset, and if we hadn’t gotten rid of Kidd we probably wouldn’t have been bad enough to get Lopez. Overall this is one of those trades that was great for both sides.
And agreed with Gebel, Ratner quit on the team way before Kidd did, if we had had an owner committed to winning, I doubt Kidd would have ever walked. I really doubt most NBA players, especially ones at Kidds age who didn’t even know how many NBA years they had left, would stay in that station.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
How is this even debateable?
The trade was and remains HORRENDOUS. Trading the greatest player in franchise history with 3 or 4 solid to great years remaining in his career for a guy that doesn’t even have a position in the NBA! This trade signaled the end of the Nets being relevant in the NBA – which is exactly what Bruce Ratner had in mind all along. Turn a team that finally had achieved greatness into garbage to make it easier for him to pry it away from New Jersey after completing turning off the longtime fan base.
Devin Harris has had EXACTLY two moments to remember as a Net – the night he and the team torched the Mavs for Kidd’s return to the Meadowlands prompting the foolish “Thank You Cuban” chants and his miracle half court shot to beat the Sixers. Other than that we have more dreary nights that I can care to count while all Kidd did this year as a supposedly old wash-up was lead the Mavericks to a division title in one of the toughest divisions in the league. Yes they are down 3-1 now but they are playing the Spurs for pete’s sake! If you swapped out Kidd for Devin right now do you think Dallas would be doing any better?
Kidd was the FRANCHISE – he should have retired a Net. Was he a jerk his last few months here? Of course but why do you think he became that way??? because Ratner was tearing up the team right in front of him and after all he did for this team he didn’t want to play for a loser and go through years of rebuilding. Ratner’s fault – not KIdd’s. And the trade was atrocious.
At that point Kidd didn't seem like he had 3-4 years left.
People seem to forget that he didn’t start consistently knocking down jumpers, hence the name Ason no J Kidd, until he got to the Dallas offense and had no choice but to do it. If you look at his fg shooting % and his 3 point shooting % the last few years in NJ and the recent years in Dallas you’ll see a pretty significant difference. At the point we traded him people weren’t sure Kidd even had 1-2 years left, let alone 3-4. Not to mention, like someone else said, there wasn’t much reason to believe he was going to re-up with us, and hell what NBA player would with an owner as committed to not winning as Ratner, and even if he did we we looked like a franchise going no where fast with him anyway. People forget even before the financial troubles this team the team with the big 3 consistently underperformed, and with their contracts there wasn’t really any room to improve, especially since Ratner is a horrible horrible drafter. Sometimes you have to take a step, or 4, back before you can move forward and that’s exactly what we had to do. Even if we had kept the big 3 I don’t see why there would be any reason to believe we’d be more than a .500 team that barely slips into the play-offs and has no real options for improvement.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Thorn is a horrible drafter not Ratner.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Issac...
….what other trades were out there that would have returned that kind of value for Kidd? The trade was far from atrocious, we got a talent in Harris, two 1st rd picks, and cap space filler. I don’t think that Thorn could have done any better
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Apr 26, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah and to add to this
if he remembers trade had been on the block before and they couldn’t get any better deals for him. So it’s not like it was a panic sell low move they’d been shopping him for a while and couldn’t get better deals.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
JKidd was making other plans....
…from the minute Kmart and Kittles left town. We just didn’t know it for a while. He never had fast break running mates after that. Blame the Rat or Thorn or bad knees. It’s all the same in the end.
not "that" Jersey Shore...Point Pleasant, 10 refreshing miles north of Seaside.
by John at the Jersey Shore on Apr 26, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
People are being revisionist...
…Kidd forced his way out of here by acting unprofessional. He quit on the team. I understand that he saw what was about to happen, but he still didn’t go about it with class, unlike VC who is a class act and was rewarded by being traded to his hometown team.
The trade had to be done, and it was the best deal available. Harris was god awful for 90% of the season but I’d still do this deal 10 out of 10 times. If we end up flipping Harris for more talent, the trade will even be more lopsided in our favor.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
he was classy for years...Thorn was too good a GM when J5 was ready to move he waited for the best deal.
Kidd saw where the franchise was heading no mans land. And all the owner cared about was money.“Cool, give me an extension” “No?” Then he showed his behind to the franchise. He got what he wanted a chance to win
NETS are a clear winner - Dallas only wins if they win a title with Kidd
NETS got great value for a player (the best NET ever and a top 10 basketball IQ guy in history) who quit on the team (and I do not argue with those who blame Ratner for Kidd packing it in). NETS win their end.
Dallas traded for Kidd for one reason and one reason only – win a title. Dirk is an awesome player but not a leader. Kidd was brought in to be a leader and to attract free agents (Marion as an example). If they do not win with Kidd this trade was a failure. Simple a that.
Well, think about this, fans stopped showing up after Kidd was traded. Does anyone really want a Devin Harris jersey (oh, wait, I have one but I will gladly give it away) or autograph?
by ispartan on Apr 26, 2010 4:27 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
fans stopped showing up
long before that
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Gina, how many games have you gone to over the past 4 years? I can tell you that the section that my seats were in was normally mostly full in the Kidd days. This year, it was practically empty. Big, big difference, but you wouldn’t know because you don’t even live in the area.
by ispartan on Apr 26, 2010 4:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
yeah I'm pretty Dallas, the Lakers and Cleveland were his top choices
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
yep
Dallas, the first team that he had to be traded from because he had become a problem, was one of his choices.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Apr 26, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Just shocking
I am no longer surprised on this site by much but do you fans really not remember all that Jason Kidd did for this team? He NEVER should have been traded. Ratner’s cost cutting made him an unhappy camper and we all know how Kidd gets when he is unhappy. Under the previous ownership group that brought Kidd in and as long as Rod Thorn was there – it never would have gotten to this point. Kidd would probably still be a Net and we would have continued to win between 45-48 games and be a playoff contender in the East. I’d say that’s a lot better than we have achieved with the MIGHTY Devin Harris leading the way. I guess some of you prefer 12-win seasons and paper bag marketing ploys.
the reason the previous ownership sold
was because the Nets were hemorrhaging money, there’s really no reason to think if they hadn’t been able to sell they wouldn’t have done the same cost cutting. And winning 45-48 games is the definition of being locked into mediocrity, the only thing we would have contended for is a chance of being swept out of the play-offs by one of the top teams in the east. If you’re resources are maxed out you should be winning 55-60 games, not 45-48. Hence why that team had to be blown up. No team over the cap should be winning less than 40 games, unless their over the cap with a bunch of <27 year old players who are going to be improving.
Not to mention the idea we were even 45-48 good is a joke. We won more than 41 games once in the 3 years before Kidd was traded, and with him and VC getting older and RJ unable to stay healthy, combined with Kristic’s knee problems, we had no where to go but down as long as we were locked into all those contracts. And we would have been stuck having to give away draft picks to move them like the Wizards did. I don’t know where people are getting this idea we were some top tier team 04-
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Gina...
If the New Jersey group had won the bid over Ratner a) the team would have been moved to Newark in 2007 with the Devils and b) likely would have retained Kidd and continued to upgrade the team around him. Vince still had value a few years ago and he likely would have been traded rather than re-signed since Ratner saw him as his last possible drawing card while the team was in a total state of limbo as he plotted to make this Brooklyn move happen. History would have been a lot different if the New Jersey group had been allowed to happen and in all likelihood, the New Jersey Nets would be thriving right now in Newark with Jason Kidd still leading the way. Truth hurts Ratner/Brooklyn fans.
They tried to trade Carter before they resigned him and after
no one ever offered better than expiring contracts until last summer. And the only reason Orlando did was because Carter was under a cheaper contract than what it would have cost them to retain Hedo.
and you realize the guy you’re talking about, Kushner, who planned on moving them to Newark. Went to jail for two years pretty soon after they were sold, and had to pay massive fines for tax evasion? I imagine even if he had won that’s the kind of thing that probably would have forced another sale anyway, if nothing else a team who’s owner was in jail paying massive fines for tax evasion certainly wouldn’t be thriving. Not to mention even after he got out he abandoned his Jersey offices and switched his real estate operations to NY back in 2007 right? So it seems unlikely that even if he had bought them there wouldn’t have been an eventual move since even he’s focused on the NY market now.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
No.
No one is disrespecting what Kidd has done for the Nets.
It’s just that most fans are upset with the way Kidd conducted himself in his last days as a Net.
I don’t blame Kidd for wanting out because he saw the writing on the wall, and he also saw that the Nets weren’t going to pay him to sit around and lose. I do blame him for being classless. Kidd was out there dogging it in his final season as a Net, and only decided to turn it on when Mark Cuban was in the audience watching him. That was an absolutely shameful display.
He had to be traded because a)he wanted out and had become a cancer and b)the Nets, regardless of ownership issues, had to hit the reset button. The Kidd-RJ-Carter trio had run it’s course, you can tell by the way we were getting the crap kicked out of us in Kidd’s last year that it was time to change direction. Do I agree with some of the stuff I’ve seen here since then? No. But we had to start over, period. Winning 42 games each year means jacks***, I’d rather the Nets win 54-60+ and compete for a championship. The Goal is to win the trophy, not barely stay afloat with aging, disgruntled talent.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Apr 26, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I may have poor memory, but
exactly what cost cutting moves cause Kidd to be unhappy at that point? Not signing Hassan Adams? I thought he was unhappy because he couldn’t get a contract extension, which was probably as much Thorn’s decision as Ratner’s, since the Team was paying RJ and VC A LOT of money, for a product that was at that point below .500. I thought the cost-cutting happened after the trade, when the Nets decided to blow things up.
The Nets lost the chance to make this trade a home run
Devin’s trade value was at its highest possible point last summer and the Nets failed to trade him and capitalize. He then came back to earth playing without Vince to make his life easier. Devin still has value around the league as there are still teams that mistakenly think he can be a PG. However, Thorn only does one thing well as a team executive, make trades, and he lost his best opportunity to cash in on Devin’s value.
Please don't let the Nets waste money on David Lee or Rudy Gay
I agree, but...
….depending on the way the balls bounce, we still may be able to flip Harris for something nice. And you never know what the Mavs pick will turn into this year.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Apr 26, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
WHY should have they traded him?
So a young guy on a very reasonable contract plays at an AS level and we should have traded him??? I fail to understand that logic.
Yeah, Devin came down to earth w/o VC making him better, but once we add more talent to this putrid roster, Devin will be OK again. He actually played better for the last 3 months of the season.
Devin is a legit building bock for our team. And please note he was the starting PG for a Mavs team that made it to the NBA Finals and that had one of the best winning records in NBA history. You can win with him being your PG.
They should have traded him
because of age cost and injures. If a guys been missing around 20 games a season in his early 20s. he’s only going to get more injury prone as he ages, especially with his style of play and skinny frame. If next year he misses significant time because of injuries again he’s going to be incredibly hard to move because teams are going to be looking at him as a ten million dollar point guard who can only work in certain systems, because of his lack of shooting(which is another reason the Mavs moved him), it’s going to be hard for him to work in a half court team with a big man, or a team who has better slasher type scorers, and who is likely to miss 20+ games.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
WRONG
You rebuild a team by establishing a few cornerstones. Devin + Lopez + CLee + TWill are cornerstones. Good players. Good attitudes (hoping TWill has seen the light for good). Good contracts. This base of cornerstones have the diversity of skills that once we have a coach, and a system and a structure to how we play in games will allow us to be successful. To be clear we need to add talent around this group to be winners let alone contenders.
This is not a fantasy team.
The problem is
1. Devin and Harris don’t have diverse skill sets.
2. A guy who’s missed around 20 games a season in his early 20s isn’t going to get less injury prone as he ages, especially with the way he plays. You can’t depend on a guy as a corner stone if he’s going to miss 1/4th, or more, of the season every year.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Like....
CP3 in New Orleans this year. B Roy in Portland this year. Tony Parker in San Antonio this year. Melo this year……
Devin was a key part of a championship finals run. Was the starting PG on a team that won 67 games (a record they have not touched since). An allstar. A top defensive PG in the league (at Dallas). He has no coach. He has a young immature team with all the veterans injured or playing out contracts on the bench. He as a team that all but asked to lose big and lose often – no film, no system, no discipline.
Damned if he stayed outside and passed to teamates who could not hit the broad side of a barn. Damned if he drove and got hurt because everyone knew he was going to the hole.
Devin is a cornerstone until/unless the NETS win the draft and commit to Wall at which point he becomes a flexible asset – keep as a fast backcourt or trade to fill a need.
That's why
CP3 trade rumors are starting up and it looks like he’s on his way out (not to mention what have they won). Tony Parker never missed more than 5 games for the first SIX years of his career. Harris has never missed less than 10, the fact that a guy, with a similar playing style, who was healthy for 6 years suddenly got injury prone as he got older should show you how much worse the expectancy would be for a guy who was missing 10-20 games a year in his early 20s. How is bringing him up at all an argument for Harris. Similarly with Roy he doesn’t have a history of injury problems HARRIS DOES. Do you not see how those are drastically different things?
Also Devin and Harris was supposed to be T-will and Harris.
And the problem is the longer they keep him the older/more injury prone he gets and the lower his trade value gets. And I don’t understand why you keep bringing up his accomplishments. Where have I said anything about him not being a good enough player? I’m saying that a player with his style and injury moving into his late 20s can’t be a building block because there’s no way you can rely on him to be healthy enough.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
that was with another team what he does now trumps that
Not that they should get rid of him for a bag of chips but he’s no cornerstone. Especially considering Terrence’s play; albeit at point forward; and we have so many draft picks coming to us.
Very nice cpawfan
Kidd for Harris trade aside you make an excellent point about the value of Devin and yes he should have been traded while his value was at its peak because he will never be a true point guard and he isn’t a good enough shooter to be a solid “2”. Honestly he is a less talented Stephon Marbury with a better attitude.
Harris is no JKidd, but...
…he was an freaking All Star last year, and one of the league’s top scorers. Then he was injured at the start of last season, and by the time he came back, he was playing on the worst team in 37 years. Hard to shine when the whole team stinks.
not "that" Jersey Shore...Point Pleasant, 10 refreshing miles north of Seaside.
by John at the Jersey Shore on Apr 26, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Devin IS a building block. How fast people forget. It wasn’t long ago when we all were chanting thank you Cuban and look at some fans hate on Devin now. Please. He’s had a bad season, that’s true. When everybody was excited about the Blur and fans were saying hey we can trade Vince, bc Devin and Brook are ready to be given the keys to the car, I said they weren’t.
OK, Harris is not a leader, nor a franchise player, nor a go-to guy. So what? Neither is Lopez. Devin can’t lead a team, but has proved he can be an excellent 2nd option ion the perimeter. We’re talking about an AS talent. A guy like RJ was never an AS, yet he was treated as one by Nets fans, who vastly overrated him.
It’s deja vu all over again. A bad Nets team has a bad season and fans want our most talented player out. Look, the Nets are a very bad team. Half the team doesn’t belong in the NBA. Devin was injured at the beginning of the year, and when he came back the team was already done.
Devin is a legit talent. He isn’t a leader and couldn’t live up to that role, which isn’t his fault entirely since that’s a job he can’t get done, because he isn’t that good. BUT how does that mean he isn’t a building block or a good piece for our future???
He has a nice contract, is entering his prime year and, just year ago, when he played for a more talented team, he was an AllStar. He also proved he can compete against top competition.
He scored 38 points (9-15 FG, 20-24 FT) on Allen Iverson. Nets won.
He scored 34 points (13-17 FG) on Deron Williams. Nets won.
He scored 47 points (14-25 FG, 17-17 FT) and 8 assists on Steve Nash. Nets won.
He scored 41 points (14-25 FG) and 13 assists on Jason Kidd. Nets won.
He scored 28 points (6-10 FG, 14-17 FG) and 12 assists on Chauncey Billups. Nets won.
He scored 39 points (11-22 FG, 12-14 FT) on Andre Miller. Nets won.
He scored 42 points (14-23 FG) on Derrick Rose. Nets won.
Lack of shooters and playmakers hurt Devin’s game this year. I wrote about this yesterday on another thread:
He’s a fairly good passer for a scoring PG. Look at Derrick Rose’s assist numbers on a much more talented team. I’m not saying Devin is the better player (Rose is a great offensive talent and has the leadership skills), but I think Devin’s made strides as a passing PG this year. During the lunch Yormark had with the fans after the paper bag incident, Tim Capstraw said that Harris’ game was all about speed, and that injuries really hurt his game, but that he was now enjoying passing the basketball more.
Another fact to take into account: as Rod Thorn pointed out, that the lack of shooters really hurts Devin’s game. Last year, Simmons finished the season with the 5th best 3pt pct in the entire league. He was god awful this year and didn’t play that much anyways. Last season, KD and Hayes were two of our best shooters. They had lots of injury problems this season, missed several games and played worse than the year before. We also had VC, who hit .385 of his 3 pt attempts last season.
The fact that Harris averaged almost the same number of assists this season is a good sign. You have to consider that: a) he had less and worse shooters this year; b) he had the ball in his hands less time than last year; c) he had less talent surrounding him (last year, Carter was the one that converted Devo’s passes, this year, Lee was bricking open looks right and left).
Ups and donws
Although the trade wasn’t all that bad, I still think it was wrong to trade JKidd. WIth the way he played, it would seem wrong to trade him. Imagine if the Bulls traded Michael Jordan back in the late 1980’s when there were rumors on that. They probably wouldn’t have won any championships. The same thing if the Lakers gave up Kobe Bryant. Despite how good Harris is, and I am not saying that he is a subpar player, JKidd still has the skills as if he was still young for a man of age, and the same thing for VC. On a sidenote, it would have been good to see him reach 100 career triple doubles in a Nets uniform rather than in a Mavs uniform. Then again, his trade did force Ratner to remove his picture as the Brooklyn move fans weren’t too happy of what was supposed to be the poster child of the move, and the same can go for VC.
I think the difference is Kobe was 27-28
Jordan was in his 20s. Kidd was 35. That’s a pretty massive difference, Kobe and Jordan were entering their primes. Kidd on the other hand no one expected to be playing for 2-3 more years.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Agreed
“it would have been good to see him reach 100 career triple doubles in a Nets uniform”
not "that" Jersey Shore...Point Pleasant, 10 refreshing miles north of Seaside.
by John at the Jersey Shore on Apr 26, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
If Kidd were Harris’ age, no one would even imagine taking John Wall with the first pick. Harris is not even close to Kidd. Watched Kidd last night and the guy is just an unbelievable performer. He sees things that Harris can’t even imagine. Was it a good trade? Well compared to the RJ and VC trade, it was amazing, but Harris is not a franchise player. Kidd still is. Harris did a horrendous job as leader this year. This sad excuse for a team would have won 30 games just with Kidd willing them on. He is an intense leader and he would have even made Yi look like a player or would have told managment to move him for something resembling a PF. Yeah, Harris might be our best player, but that is not saying a great deal. 12 wins is a permanent stain on his resume: after all he was the PG and the keys were given to him.
Absolutely Oman
I wonder how many of these fans that have dismissed Kidd and approved of the trade have even watched Jason play for the Mavericks – and I mean on a regular basis. I will always love Jason Kidd even though I was irate with him for bailing on us, I know why he did. Since the trade I try to watch him as often as possible and I am still amazed at what he brings to the table and this is three years later! He still has at least one if not too brilliant years left and I long for the days he was doing it for us. Devin Harris will never be a leader on a winning team if he is even able to be a leader at all. His game and his persona simply aren’t good enough to be that guy at this level.
the key word in omans statement is
“if Kidd were Harris’s age”, that’s the problem he’s not. He’s ten years older. I love Jason Kidd, he’s by far my favorite player ever and I have a hard time believing he ever won’t be, and obviously in his prime Harris couldn’t hold his jock strap, he can barely hold it now. But that doesn’t mean the trade was bad. For one Kidd hadn’t added the jump shot, and at that point there was no reason to believe he would, and there was definitely a major concern that he’d be retired by now. We weren’t going to improve by keeping him and we weren’t ever going to be bad enough to improve through the draft. And I don’t even like Harris all that much but he’s still a valuable trade piece and that’s where his value comes in, I don’t think anyone, or at least I hope not, is expecting him to lead us to a championship.
Of course if Thorns still making the decisions then who knows what he’s thinking.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Also to add to the point
if you remember we’d shop him for a few deadlines and at the time the Lakers wouldn’t even trade Bynum for him, not 2010 Bynum. 2005-2006 and 2006-2007 Bynum for him. The Cavs wouldn’t offer more than Drew Gooden, that should give you some context as to how people were viewing Kidd at the time. In fact the rumors about Dallas had been around forever but until Harris was injured even they wouldn’t offer anything of value. The only reason they did was because Harris was going to miss too much time and if they waited for him to come back by the time he did they would have lost too many games in the standings. He was on the decline until he got to Dallas an the offense forced him to add the jump shot.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I think the trade worked out for the Nets because of one reason if we had kept Kidd we prob would have missed out on Brook Lopez, who has passed Kidd as my favorite Net. Kidd was my favorite, but now Brook Lopez for sure is and Kidd prob won’t be again, will still respect him for what he did for Nets though. And I love people who think we would be better if we didn’t do this trade. One we wouldn’t have Kidd because he would have left, we prob would have missed out of Brook Lopez and sucked even more. So good trade
Sucked even more?
Hard to imagine. But after all, we are talking about the Nets.
not "that" Jersey Shore...Point Pleasant, 10 refreshing miles north of Seaside.
by John at the Jersey Shore on Apr 26, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
When I think of "sucked even more"
I think of the long-term prospects of the team. If we’d kept Kidd we probably would have just been a middling, 35-45 win team, with no real upside or downside. We wouldn’t have our two building blocks right now (Harris and Lopez), we wouldn’t have a top 4 pick in this draft, we wouldn’t be going anywhere, really.
I’d much rather be a fan of the Nets than a team like, say, the Raptors right now. They’ve got no cap space, their core is old/overpaid/undergood, their star is about to leave, and they don’t have any extra draft picks coming up. At least our future has potential.
by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 26, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see Harris as a building block...
…just a very good wing man who needs to play off an elite player (like Carter). He is not “the man” and not much of a leader. Nice guy, though.
not "that" Jersey Shore...Point Pleasant, 10 refreshing miles north of Seaside.
by John at the Jersey Shore on Apr 26, 2010 8:52 PM EDT reply actions
I wouldn't consider him a building block
but under his current contract he’s still a very valuable trade piece.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
It was a GREAT TRADE
Buy low (Harris) and sell high (Kidd). Harris’s salary vs Kidd’s makes it a great trade when neither one was going to lead their team to the finals and Kidd was paid to help WIN the NBA title. Look at the talent Dallas has now. Kidd is far from being the player he was with the Nets. He wasn’t even able to guard pg’s when he left. And it was a crap shoot whether or not he could have played this long. Not to mention we’ll get their first round pick this year. Kidd is the greatest Net but the trade was made and it will work out better for the Nets if the Mavs don’t win the title this year.
At this point I am not sure there is ANYTHING left to debate about this trade except for whether or not the Nets’ decision to fold the Vince Carter trade into it by asking for Courtney Lee was a good idea.
by diehardNFFLbarnone on Apr 26, 2010 9:25 PM EDT reply actions
The trade was horrible. It would be great to have Ryan Anderson, but it’s too bad he’s playing in Orlando. The 27 pick is basically worse than nothing considering that Thorn will be making that pick and Devin Harris is the equivalent of nothing unless you think that having a point guard that can’t shoot, defend, or make plays is a good thing.
Well said GrandKenyon
agree with all that you posted above. The trade was and will always be a total dud. Jason Kidd should have finished his career as a Net – something that sounds unlikely only because Ratner’s invasion totaled the team and any hopes of contending which made Kidd want out.
Kidd would have left the Nets if we didn’t trade him. Some people don’t get it, Kidd wasn’t staying with the Nets. People need to move on from this trade, if you don’t like it go cheer for Kidd and the Mavs to beat the Spurs tonight. Kidd isn’t a Net anymore I thank him for what he did and wish him well, but bye Kidd hello Brook Lopez, T-Will, CLee, and all the Nets in the future. Kidd is in the past.
by Julia Nets Fan on Apr 27, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
He should never have been traded
I don’t care if the trade allows for either cap space or some max contract, he shouldn’t have been traded. Most other teams wouldn’t trade their best players. I will admit that I don’t know much about this cap space or max contract thing, but I do find that keeping the player(s) is more important than what can be saved. Seriously, I would not want the Nets to give up a player that actually made them a playoff and even a NBA Finals contender. Of course I will probably say more about the VC trade and why it was wrong as well, because that was really giving up someone who is really good.
If Proky was the owner at that time I agree. But apparently Ratner was much futher in debt than people knew.
It was more for finances than preparing for 2010 free agency.
Where were the Nets going with Kidd? Lets ask that question, sure they went to the finals in 2002 and 2003, but after that not so much. The last season Kidd was here we almost ended up with the same record as the first season without him, that’s telling you something
by Julia Nets Fan on Apr 28, 2010 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions
We are talking about the wrong subject. The topic should be whether Nets should Draft Wall and Discard Harris.
Because evidence from last year’s offers was that Harris wouldn’t bring back any quality player who would fit in with Net’s future to compete for a Championship.
Lets not Kidd ourselves. Wall + Harris wouldn’t work out well after 1/2 year. Neither will be great shooters and aren’t tall enough.
And if Nets end up trading Harris for a mediocre rotation player and a Draft pick, then JKidd would have won the argument hands down! There is no need for that to happen.
The other question to ask is whether a near All Star Level Harris with much better defense, could be achieved by bringing in the right coach (eg. Avery Johnson) and some good surrounding players, via draft/free agency.
or just wait till the deadline
when Harris has likely rebuilt some of his value to trade him.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
For Harris to get sufficient PT to rebuild his value, would mean hardly playing CLee (or is a better shooter) or only playing Wall about 20 minutes per game.
That is, if Nets were lucky enough in the draft lottery to have Wall available to draft.
Also, Nets would have to significantly improve down low, for Wall and Harris to thrive, playing together, during the 1st half of next season.
Without drafting Wall, there is no practical scenario where Thorn would trade Harris, regardless of what people think.
Wall only playing 20 minutes a game
wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world… lol or they could go insanely small and put t-will at the pf position. I doubt it would work but it would be pretty hilarious to watch, and could it really be that much worse than Lee?
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
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