After LeBron, the Back-Up Plan
by Net Income on Apr 18, 2010 12:34 PM EDT
in 2010 Free Agency
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PrintThe Knicks are banking on getting two max players (at $16.5 million each) for their $34 million in cap space. The Nets will have about $8 million less...unless Kris Humphries decides to opt out. If he does, the Nets will have close to $30 million. That's enough for a superstar making a max salary and a star making only slightly less.
No doubt, Plan "A" is LeBron James, using Mikhail Prokhorov's money, Jay-Z's friendship, and if they get lucky May 18, John Wall's potential. But what if they don't get lucky and don't get LeBron? What's Play "B"? Both Fred Kerber and Al Iannazzone report the "hot" names for the Nets come down to four players: Amare Stoudemire, Carlos Boozer, David Lee and Rudy Gay. Stoudemire has a player option, Boozer and Lee are unrestricted free agents and Gay is restricted.
As Iannazzone writes, "The two biggest words in the Nets’ off-season are if and could."
- Nets think big, but there are many ifs - Al Iannazzone - The Record
- Nets starting star search - Fred Kerber - New York Post
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What the Explicative!
I quite clearly remember being told repeatedly that we had the cap space for 2 max FAs. Explanation please.
by Paul G. B. (formerly Paul B) on Apr 18, 2010 12:43 PM EDT reply actions
We picked up Yi’s option. That subtracted 4 mil. They added payroll with Hump. But even subtracting Yi, it’s not quite enough.
Glad to see the top targets are PF’s. We have had nothing since Kenyon. Love to replace his toughness and grit and the way he motivated his team. None of the 4 targets are perfect, but all of them are much better. How can we get a tough big, an athlete, a shooter, and a go to guy and defenders? Tough order for the off season, but with Thorn focused anything is possible!
Yi had nothing to do with this
His option was factored in to their estimate…as was the rookie options for Lee, Lopez and CDR.
has nothing to do with Yi's option
Yi’s option, along with those of Lopez, Lee and CDR were all factored in.
Replace Kenyon with Kenyon?
He’s a FA.
by Paul G. B. (formerly Paul B) on Apr 18, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
You know...
VC, Kidd, RJ is still in the league too. Lets get them all back, lol. No fans.
that was last July
before all sorts of roster moves, including it must be noted a very high first round pick.
IF for example, the Nets had finished at the same level of the Knicks, their pick would have been around #9, who will get $1.8 million. If the Nets wind up with the #1 pick, they will have to pay him $4.3 million. That’s a $2.5 million difference.
Humphries will make a little more than Najera this year. That’s another $500,000.
Gotta wrap my head around the numbers... cuz that doesn't seem like such a big difference at first glance.
But I thank you for the response good sir.
by Paul G. B. (formerly Paul B) on Apr 18, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd focus on trying to get one star free agent this summer, another next summer
After the upcoming season, Humpries and Yi will come off the books, and no one else’s salary would rise significantly. We desperately need a power forward, so if we get one of the top 2 picks and go small in the draft, I would try to sign Amare first, then Boozer (at the right price), then Lee. The team will likely look more appealing by next year, and we would have the cap room to go after Carmelo or try and make a trade taking on more salary than we ship out.
However – I do not totally buy into the idea that the Knicks have the most cap room this summer. Technically, yes they do. But Yi has value as does Harris. That is about 14 million in salary that we could probably free up if we were willing to sell for less than we may believe them to be worth. If the indications are we can get two elite free agents provided we have the cap space, I think we can free up the necessary cap space to do so.
My dream lineup
I dont want Lebron.
I want to figure a way to get this lineup:
Wall
Joe Johnson
Rudy Gay
Amare
Lopez
Imagine Wall Gay and Amare running the break, with Joe Johnson ready to close games with Brook in the half court. OMG.
Those are two max players and a 2nd tier
We’d have to have about 45 mil in cap space to do that.
I’d also like people to remember that Brook Lopez is going to have to get extended at some point so whatever we do, we have to keep that in mind.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Apr 18, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
I was under the impression Amare is a max, and Gay and Johnson are second tier, going as far to say that Gay would be less then Johnson. PLUS my scenario involves letting Devin go, so more room would come from that. I do like Devin, but I don’t see how we can get Wall and Devin and use them together. It would just be wiser to move him. You really think we can win the title with a PG playing the 2, and an undersized Wall playing the 1!? No. So as far as that’s concerned, his worth I would say is comparable to Gay.
Altanta will likely match any offer made to Johnson up to max money
which is why he’ll likely be a max. And Gay will probably end up getting max money because so many teams have cleared cap room and the whole demand/supply thing, especially if Lebron/Wade don’t opt out, they’ll have to sign someone.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Which team would offer Gay more than 65 million/5 years?
Any team that did would be frozen for 1 week. The Knicks would be occupied.
The Nets are the other team with the ability to have a week tied up and still go after a top PF, which is still their #1 priority.
Only if Knicks realize they can’t get Joe Johnson or they wouldn’t want two Big Men like Bosh/Amare/Boozer would they go after RGay.
I would rather have TWill start then the overrated, overpaid rudy gay. And i Joe Johnson has said he doesnt really want to go to the Nets. Harris at the 2 is more reasonable.
Joe Johnson's also going to take max money
since Atlanta will apparently match up to that.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Twill
I love Twill, but I dont see him starting on a championship team for a long time. He is just too versatile, but not good enough in one thing or another to be a starter with other top FA’s on a team. On the lowly Nets yes, but once you put real talent out there, he will get lost. Think about it… if Wall is so great, and the next great young PG(which i am doubtful of, but lets just roll with that) what purpose will Twill serve out on the floor with say, Wall, Johnson, Amare, and Lopez? Johnson can pass, and board, and score. Wall can pass. Amare scores, Brook does whatever he wants. I dont know. I LOVE him, and he is my fav Net, but I dont see him working on a championship level team. YET! He is best with the ball in his hands, but that would mean that he would override Wall and Johnson. In reality he would become another body on the floor who does everything the other guys can do, except shoot the outside shot. Thats what we need.
The only two free agents who should get max's anyway is LeBron and D-Wade so no worry's
There not going to play together
the market will decide
and no matter what happens, five players will get max deals: James, Wade, Stoudemire, Johnson and probably Boozer. I also expect Nowitzki and Yao will opt out so they can get extensions beyond 2011.
Not all max contracts are equal in value...
Boozer I believe has the most seniority so a max contract for him would eclipse the total pay in a contract to Lebron or Wade for example. I don’t think Boozer gets the max, but it is possible, especially with the Knicks trying to save face by signing at least two all star players.
Miami apparently is planning on offering Boozer max
as a way to keep Wade happy just so he doesn’t opt out.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I bet Miami goes after Bosh first...
Boozer may be their plan B.
They're beyond crazy.
Max money for an injury-prone player is cap suicide.
Sunny days ahead? Probably not.
Yup Boozer gets lost every year in the playoffs by length, they can have him.
Building thru the draft and not overpricing on the wrong players is how we will make it out this mess.
Sure.
The Knicks may have the most cap space but the lack what the Nets have, a solid core. No superstar would want to come their way.
hey, they have two second round picks
Of course they have no center (and if Lee signs with someone else) they will have NO big men.
I'm sure....
….that D’Antoni would prefer it that way
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
by MrDollarBills on Apr 18, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
They will have earl barron. i hear they are going to resign him. lmaooooo!! knicks have only 4players under contract. what losers.
They could catch lightning in a bottle.
But how often does that happen. They are really banking on these stars opting out.
um
the solid core that won 12 games? The Knicks also have a coach, an attractive market, and they play in NY, and not New Jersey at MSG, not Prudential. The Knicks are clearly more attractive to free agents.
Lebron, Bosh, Wade, and Amar’e aren’t going to New Jersey. So they overpay for Lee or boozer and that makes the Nets, what? a 35 win team at best?
except for the fact the nets are moving to brooklyn
and have draft picks, and young players who are going to get better. The nets had a 40-50 win team they blew up to start over, the knicks have been bad for nearly a decade. the knicks haven’t undergone a massive cutting of basketball staff and played with out a coach with a bunch of young kids for a year and they still couldn’t even break 30 wins, so what exactly is their excuse for being so awful? Lebron, and Wade aren’t going to the knicks or the nets, the only people who think they are are knicks fans and NY reporters who can’t pull their heads out of their asses. But if the nets strike out we still have Lopez, T.Williams C.Lee, Devin Harris and/or the number 1 pick, if the knicks strike out, and Lee signs with someone after they renounce his rights, what exactly does that leave them with? Tracy Mcgrady? LOL.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I really hope they have no intention
of giving max money to gay or boozer. And I can’t say the idea of giving max money to a guy with Amare’s knee history is all that inspiring either.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
IMO teams like Portland and the Zombie Sonics
already set up the perfect model to follow. Build through the draft and save your money to resign your own stars. If we’re locked into max money for two players for the next 5+ years what are we going to do when guys like Lopez, and whoever our number 1 this year is, rookie contracts expire? Or hell if Wade, and Lebron don’t opt out this year, what will we do next year when all of their contracts do expire and we’re locked into to paying Gay/Lee?
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I agree that Portland and OKC are both great models....but
Both those teams are trying to be active in free agency also – and Portland especially before they have to resign their own stars. Portland has just resigned Roy but before that they tried to take advantage of their own deep pockets by signing a big name. Hedo Turkuglu got away (perhaps for the best) and then they signed Andre Miller. They were protesting with the league about Darius Miles counting against their cap. If they had more cap room they would have made a bigger offer to a bigger name besides Andre Miller. Prokhy is very rich – lets not hesitate to spend on a free agent if he makes us better. Then Prokhy has the money to go over the cap to resign Lopez, TWill, etc.
I agree in being active in free agency
but there’s a big difference between signing undervalued guys like Miller, and offering two max contracts. I’m not saying don’t use free agency, I’m saying there’s no reason to fall over to lock ourselves into 2 players at 13+ million per this off-season. There’s no reason to overpay JUST to say we’ve signed someone. I’d rather them take on a big expiring contract, maybe someone like AK-47, for one year than lock themselves into overpays just to make a splash.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I agree too...
But think we desperately need a PF, have needed one since KMart left. Sometimes you have to overpay for size. To think we can land a PF with mid first round picks, or with a contract offer of the mid level, has already proven to be somewhat hopeless. A guy like Amare is an elite talent. He comes with risks, but to think we will be able to land a guy like him on the cheap may be wishful thinking.
I don't think we can land one like him for cheap
but I also don’t think we need one like him when we have Lopez. I don’t think you need an all-star pf when you already have an all-star center, I mean how many teams can you think of that pair elite centers with elite pfs? Usually one’s a star and one’s more of a role player complimentary player. I think having Lopez gives us the luxury of not having to overpay for a pf.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I hope Lopez becomes a dominating force...
But he is not there yet and I don’t think he has the athletic gifts to be the dominating force that the elite teams have on the inside. Fratello would comment on this during our games – Lopez will struggle going against players with strength, length, and athleticism because he is not a very explosive player himself. I think pairing Lopez with a force like Amare would bring us to another level that we need to reach in order to compete for championships.
I don't think you have to be that athletic to dominate from the center
position. I can understand bringing in a power forward who can be a scoring option, but I just don’t see the point of bringing in an all offense power forward at a high cost. More than likely he’ll just take touches from Lopez and not improve the team on the defensive/rebounding side.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Lopez aint a superstar. He is a very good young player but after going through a season where we won 12 games, its clear we need much more productivity out of our PF. Our defense was pretty bad but our offense was truly abysmal. Just look at average points we scored vs. gave up. Amare would make us better than Udonis Haslem.
But how much of that was because of pf
and how much of that was because of no real coach, no scouting, no real game plans, and a bunch of players who really had no idea what they were doing or going on. Amare might make us better than Haslem but is the added value worth the increase in cost. Haslem, just using him as an example, is only making about 6.6 million per on his contract, compared to Amare who will likely get 16 million just in the first year with an escalating cost into the 20 millions. Wouldn’t you imagine Haslem plus an extra 10-16 million to allocate elsewhere would make us better than just putting all that money into Amare? Or a better example, replace Haslem with Scola at like 8-10 million per, and then using the extra 8-10 million left over on a shooter like Roger Mason, which is something we desperately need, and who might not even command that much.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
A lot of it was because we had a black hole at PF. The other problems were real but will be worked out with the hiring of a real coach and scouting staff. You can only play 5 guys on the court at once. People love Harris and TWill, people think Harris is a legit all star, and Lee is capable. If you save 10 million per year by signing Haslem over Amare, can we spend that 10 million better on a true impact player? The Roger Masons of the world will come and go, we can find those guys in the draft or low level free agency. Amare is an impact player. If you pass on him, I can accept it if it means getting Joe Johnson, Lebron, etc. But please please please dont pass on Amare so we can have Roger Mason!! Even three Roger Masons would not come near having one Amare.
I'd disagree
the blackhole at pf wasn’t because of offense, it was because of lack of defense and rebouding, i.e remember Scola going for 42 against us? Adding Amare will bring name value but there are much cheaper options, not to mention less risky than being locked into a big man with a history of knee problems into his 30s, that will likely improve the team just as much. The biggest thing Amare brings, low post scoring, is one of the few teams this team doesn’t have a huge need for.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Scola is good too...
But you will have to pay through the nose for him as well to get him out of Houston and he is older than Amare. I am not dead set on Amare, more like dead set on getting a productive player to fill the gap at PF and allow us to bring Yi off the bench, if he is still on the team. But teams rarely give up on size so, again, you may have to overpay to fill our PF gap, which we have had for many years. If you do not draft a PF this year, you cannot assume we will ever draft high enough again to assure ourselves an opportunity to draft a legit PF. And cap space will only be here for this year and perhaps next. So the opportunities to unearth this long lost PF are not plentiful. If finding even a reliable defensive and rebounding presence at PF were relatively easy, we would have done so during our Kidd-Carter-RJ days.
Good point about Scola
If we draft Wall, trading Yi for Scola will be great for both teams.
Forget Scola
How about this trade:
Yi, #27 and 31 picks for Jared Jeffries and Houston’s lotto pick (#14). Then, draft Patrick Patterson. he Rockets would save $3M from Jeffries’ contract and could pair Yi with Yao.
After shedding McGrady's contract
I’m not really sure why the Rockets would move down that far in the draft just to save 3 M.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I like the idea of trading Yi and getting Patrick Patterson.
However, to do that the Nets would be giving up 2.8 million in cap space, which neither Thorn nor I like.
Apparently, you want to prevent the Nets from getting two higher tear free agents, such as DLee + RGay. The might be cutting it close if they forfeited 2.8 million in cap space first.
Bynum and Gasol, and D-Howard and Lewis, also Yao and Scola
We want to be elite and have a strong Center and forward rotation if we can, but I agree at the right price. But we’ve been getting pusher around a lot, we still don’t really know how Lopez will fair on a playoff team with less touches.
Scola is completely different
and Yao’s practically been permanently injured. But Scola is the complete opposite type of player of Amare, he’s more of an all defense rebounding power forward, he can score but how often do they actually go to him when Yao’s in the game. If anything Yao and Scola, not that they actually play together than often, would be the opposite type of front court of Amare and Lopez. Lewis isn’t a low post scorer at all either, he’s a shooter and really only a power forward by name.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Scola scores
> he’s more of an all defense rebounding power forward
No, Scola doesn’t play no defense. He scores. He can easily drop 30 points being the team’s 1st or 2nd scoring option.
He can be
but he isn’t always asked to be, they didn’t ask him to do that until they traded Landry and Yi went down for the 50th time. Before that he was asked to rebound and defend.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Plan B??
Plan A is simple Throw money at Coach K, Lebron, Bosh, Wade and Amare.
Plan B seems be a let down. This summer would feel like a failure if none of those stars are signed by the Nets, admit it.
Rudy Gay and David Lee?? yay….. Neither is the leader the Nets need or the superstar the team wants.
Lebron seems like such a long shot. A pipe dream almost. It would be a dream and a nightmare for fans everywhere. Lebron would be better off in NYC. Everyone knows it. Stern is secretly praying the superstars move to the Big Apple.
The NBA would be the 2nd most popular sport behind the NFL.
Most of the stars are in the west coast so the NBA has slipped
In the 90’s the stars and winning teams were in the east and the good teams were spread out and the NBA was booming.
if Lebron, Wade, and Bosh sign in major markets the NBA will be more popular again.
The Nets may have to settle for Cousins or Johnson in the draft.
The Nets might not get anything more than David Lee in Free Agency and thats not a lock. What is Plan C?? or D?
What is Plan C
you make a very good point
In the biggest off season in Nets history, if we come up empty, Thorn and management should hang their heads because we could have traded for talent in the Kidd/ carter/ RJ era and turned into IMMEDIATE contenders. Instead, we began rebuilding, hoping to pick a young star in this off season. Honestly, our best chance at a star is David Lee. Even if we couldn’t land him, we would then be able to keep the Knicks away from 2 FA’s even though there is absolutely no chance theKnciks get any player at all. The knicks suck and the only thing they have is NY.. admit it!
Do you really think we could have traded those huge contracts for other stars?
What stars do you think teams were going to give up for 2 30 year olds owed max money for multiple years? Or RJ who hadn’t been healthy for like 2 seasons. They tried to trade VC at the deadline for 2 years before the Orlando deal and couldn’t get offered anything back better than expiring contracts, even for Kidd most teams weren’t offering up much of value we basically got lucky that Harris got injured and the Mavs didn’t want to wait for him to get healthy. And David Lee is not a star by any means, he’s a role player, an awesome one, but still just a role player.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
If u read my comment
you would understand i said kepp that trio of players and add better role players and a stronger bench. That would keep our stars in Jersey and make us contenders. Read it carfeully before your so quick to correct it
In retrospect, they were traded for Financial reasons, not the excuse for building for 2010.
Jefferson should have been saved for a better offer, in retrospect.
But in the end, it all led to Prokhorov and the Nets having a chance for the 1st pick.
Saved Jefferson for who exactly?
Milwaukee waited an extra year and get scrubs for him. If anything, we waited too long to trade RJ. We could have had Deng and a mid first round pick for him(which may have turned into Rajon Rondo) if we traded him earlier.
Where do people come up with this stuff?
So right when we are on the precipice of landing a top 4 pick in the draft, with the richest owner in the league, prepping the private jet to try to lure Lebron to the team, and bringing an all star friend along with him, you say the building for 2010 was all a ruse, a fallacy. The fact we are going into free agency season with guns a’blazing proves your post has little basis in reality. Of course there were financial considerations in play also, but the team was headed nowhere. The rebuilding for 2010 strategy was real, whether we are successful in free agency or not.
Some Nets fans believe RJ is some kind of superstar
Nobody gave anything for him. Look at what the Bucks got for him. That was a good move. Think about it: had the Nets wanted him back last summer, they could have got him for Simmons alone, LOL!
The Spurs already wanted to get rid of him at the deadline.
How were we going to add better role players and a stronger bench
with no cap room, or money and usually drafting outside of the lottery? What do you think we could have traded?
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
David Lee is an All Star, not a role player. He is 2nd in NBA in rebounds over past 2 years, playing out of position.
He will have at least 5 teams prepared to offer him a 60 million contract over 5 years, if necessary.
Fortunately DLee (The Riddler) has given clues that he wants to be a Net, but people in the National media have been stumped by “the Riddler”.
Dennis Rodman, I suppose was a “role player”. But if he was age 26 today, Rodman too would command a similar offer (if not for his negatives). Rodman, by the way, is still under discussion to become “a Hall-of-Famer”.
So you can call David Lee what you want, but I want him on my team next to BLopez.
Why he plays no defense?
Would he be a pretty good fit next to Lopez? Yes, would he be a good enough fit to be worth 12+ million per, absolutely not. He’ll add put back scoring and rebounding but we’ll still have a defensively weak front court, and since so much of his game is based on athleticism he’ll drastically lose value as he ages. That’s definitely not the type of player you want to be paying 12 million or so per for the next 4-5 years.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Agreed
You’re right, Gina. We shouldn’t give the big Bucks to another big man who couldn’t guard my gramma, unless he’s a true star. Lee is a nice player, unlike Gay he’s a team 1st guy, could complement Lopez on O with his mid range game, and is a nice passer and a great rebounder, which we need, but he simply isn’t close to be worth the kind of contract he’d command. He’s not the type of player you give an eight figure salary.
And Rodman was much better precisely for the fact
he did the things Lee does AND played all-star defense. Which is what separates a guy like Lee from guys like say Shawn Marion.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Rodman didn't play offense. Lee plays offense and rebounds.
Lee may end up in the Hall-of-Fame if he continues at his pace.
And he will be a much better defender when he is playing in a new system with a new coach, next to BLopez.
And the options for Thorn/Prokhorov are limited, so you take what you have available from the menu – or else “you starve”.
He's still being considered for Hall-of-Fame, so people DO notice.
Its his off-court stuff that has kept Rodman out.
Both do have rebounding in common.
The point is that Gina thinks that DLee is nothing more than a “role player” which is nonsense, but even if true, could result in a Hall-of-Fame career.
it's not nonsense
they’re essientially both 10-10 guys, the difference is Rodman played all world defense, and people recognized that during his careeer, he was on the all defensive team 7 times. That, coupled with the insane play-off championship runs he was a part of, is why he’s being considered for the HOF. No one would ever mistake Lee for a an all-defensive player. There’s really 0 reason to say that Lee might be considered for the HOF based on Rodman’s considerations because you’re ignoring a major piece of the puzzle.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Half and Half
Well your right about Rodman… but Lee 10 and 10!??
Rodman was like 8 and 20. Lee is like 20 and 10.
um lee has been 20-10 this year
you know he existed before this year right? he didn’t become 20-10 until d’antoni’s offense because of an increased possessions. He’s not a 20-10 guy, he’s a ten-ten guy in a normal offense a 20-10 guy in d’antoni’s.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
If I had to start a team I'm taking Rodman over Lee I don't care what Lee's statistics this year say
Rodman was a winner who could play in any system, in any era, did all the little things and big things to help teams win. Guarding Karl Malone getting into his head almost mentally taking him out the series. Rodman was the man I mean I love Lee but they are different players, Lee along with Lopez has to do what there doing on PLayoff teams before we start anointing them. Rodman was the man people, stats only mean so much look at Pippens tell me he wasn’t a great or a Hall of Famer.
You're joking, right?
David Lee a Hall of Famer???
Dude, you overrated him more than I thought. Mentioning him and Rodman in the same sentence is sacrilege.
Dennis Rodman couldn’t score. He would get his cheapies (layups) and hoist a three once in a while, but he was basically a zero on offense.
I don’t understand why we’re comparing him to Lee, honestly. They aren’t very similar at all.
I didn't jerry25 did
he did average near 10/10 though for his career. And Lee basically scores the same way, on put backs and easy lay ups all his offense is hustle plays. The only reason his 10/10 has turned into 20-10 is because of d’antoni’s system high paced system. He hasn’t become any more efficient hre’s just taking more shots, which makes sense because the knicks team as a whole is taking more shots. In a more methodical offense he goes back to being a 10-12 points 10-12 rebound a night guy. Overpaying thinking he’s a 20-10 guy would be one of the dumbest things we could do.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I won't even respond to that ridiculous comparison of Rodman on offense vs. DLee.
Maybe your father, who would have been of proper age to appreciate Rodman, could explain.
They still have reruns on NBATV and ESPN Classic.
You just may have to wait about 6 more months to find out what kind of true offensive player DLee is.
Why when we have years worth of data
on Lee’s offense? Are you telling me the Knicks run specific plays through him and he frequently posts up? Because any body who’s ever seen any D’antoni offense, or watched the knicks play, knows that’s absolutely not the case. He scores on putbacks/hustle plays or lay ups in transition. I’m not saying they’re the same player offensively I’m saying neither are go to offensive players on a team. And anyone who’s ever watched David Lee, or watched any D’antoni offense, knows exactly what type of offensive player he is an excellent hustle player who gets a lot of hustle opportunities in a high paced offense. I don’t understand what other argument you could attempt to make if you’ve ever seen him play.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
What's your point?
Jamal Magloire is a better offensive than Dennis Rodman, so what?
Enough with this nonsense, Rodman is one of the best rebounders and defenders in the history of the game, and he was an absolutely KEY contributor on teams that won the championship doing that.
"Jamal Magloire is a better offensive than Dennis Rodman, so what?"
Explain that to Gina. She seems to have a different idea about Rodman’s inability to play offense.
This all started when she called DLee “a role player” and I said that Rodman was a role player, but is also a candidate for Hall of Fame. She basically said that if you take away the D’Antoni offense, that DLee and Rodman would be similar on offense!!
No i said they'd have similar offensive numbers
outside of D’antoni’s offense, Lee is a 10 and 10 guy.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
David Lee could be a 10 and 10 guy next to Brook Lopez and still be a huge asset to the Nets next year.
The Nets should have enough scorers next year if they get Turner and RGay.
So if DLee only gets 10 easy pts (on 8 shots) with 10 boards in about 32 minutes, he would be a big asset. However, I expect him to exceed those expectations. Nets defense at PF would be much improved from this year.
But never compare DLee’s offensive abilities to Dennis Rodman. Most of us are old enough to have seen him play over 100 games. He was uncoordinated on offense.
I didn't compare their offensive abilities
I said outside of D’antoni’s offense they’re numbers would be the same and Rodman was a HOFamer because of his defense and championship runs and your comparion was flawed.
And if you notice not one of the leagues best defensive teams didn’t make the play-offs, but plenty of the best offensive ones didn’t. Toronto, GS, Memphis and the Knicks are all in the top ten of scoring and sitting at home, but none of the top ten in points against, as in held teams to the lowest totals, didn’t make it. Scoring isn’t everything.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
And 6 of the teams that made it
are in the bottom 11 of scoring.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Nice article. We can watch the playoffs and hope Utah and Phoenix lose in round one, so they are more likely to leave.
We can argue about Lee vs. Amare and Boozer and what they are worth, later on.
Right now I care about what was said of Avery Johnson or JVG for a new coach.
AJ, it was said by a NBA official was willing to accept an offer from New Orleans.
http://www.nola.com/hornets/index.ssf/2010/04/new_orleans_hornets_job_tops_a.html
Timing is critical for showing interest in AJ.
Avery would make Harris a better player, as well as RGay, if Nets would get him as a FA.
Smalls are a dime a dozen
RJ, VC and Kidd all making big $ cost us the ability to get a high draft pick or sign a top FA cuz of our broke owner. We couldn’t draft or sign a good big man therefore we could never contend for a title. To exercise Yi’s option was a waste of 4 mil. Even if you lose him for nothing it would have been addition by subtraction and forced us to get a legit PF a some point. Anyone who doesn’t think that the fact that we had bad d-league talent at the PF position this year is the biggest reason we won 12 games is delusional. If the "team factored’ Yi’s 4 mil in that’s the kind of decision losers make. The other rookies have talent. Other than Lebron I wouldn’t spend money on any player that would eliminate our chance to give an elite player a max contract. I’d rather take my chances on a big in the draft.
I hear Swat is available, He used to be our first round pick PF.
The chance of getting a rookie PF better than Yi at the #27 or lower is rare. Subtraction of Yi this year = 0 wins. That’s a fact.
On the other hand, I have no problem trading Yi, or getting a proven star PF from FA. Just saying, subtraction and gambling with rookies at PF can get your funky results.
Agreed I'm not sure where this idea a rookie big man at the bottom of the first round
will be able to step in and be better than hump/yi/boone is coming from. How often do rookie big men taking at the top of the draft step in and do that?
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I think the idea comes from history
Boone was as good in his rookie year as he was this year.
Hump was as good in his rookie year as he was this year.
Big baby Davis (who is noted on this site) was as good in his rookie year as he was in 2009
And we all know stories like Carl Landry and Paul Milsap coming from the second round. And even more recent was “no ACLs Blair” in the last draft.
Rotation big men are available. Put on a good team, with a good coach, with a clear system, with a clear role (rebound. defend, score, hustle, etc.) you can plug in a rookie serviceable big man for 10-15 minutes a game and easily replace Hump or Boone. And have some hope of upside and save cap space.
I don't agree with the 1st 3 comparisons.
Boone was a project in his first year. He spent most of his time on the bicycle.
Boone, I recall had a very good stretch at the end of the year, where he couldn’t miss inside for about 9 games.
However, in his first year, Boone only succeeded when give lots of PT.
This year however, Boone plays well when coming off the bench for limited PT. He has progressed at that.
It is his FT shooting that has regressed. He needs a psychiatrist FT teacher.
I didn’t follow Hump in his first year, but he was a reserve everywhere. This year he would have done EVEN Better than he did, had it not been for Kiki’s bias to Yi. And I’m glad, because if he was treated fairly, he would probably not be returning next year.
Big Baby Davis came into his own, only during the playoffs of his Rookie year. I was in favor of taking him instead of SWill, until I saw the “highlights” of SWill blocking shots. He always was a reserve, but a damn good Moose with a nice midrange shot for someone as fat as he is.
Yeah there's those 5 examples
but you’re talking about 5 examples over a 4-5 year time span where there were probably 50-60 big men picked low. Isn’t the fact you can only name 4-5 since like 2006 kind of an argument against it?
also like jerry said Boone played like 11 minutes a game his rookie season, and missed a good portion because of injuries.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
It was a quick answer to a quick question
I expect if I went trolling historic draft info I would find more examples – but I already spend to much time on this site!
The point is that Hump and Boone were at the end of the bench of a historically horrible team. To assume they are hard to replace is (in my opinion) ridiculous. There will be serviceable big men at the bottom of the first round who can step into a functioning team (coach, system, etc.) and perform as well or better than Hump and Boone.
As for Boone, Hump and Davis (my examples) none of them are materially better players either in skill set or numbers per minute then they were in their first years. They are disposable parts in the NBA machine. Neither stars nor specialists.
Also depends who's feeding you the ball Jason Kidd made Boone, T-Will towards the end brought Boone back into relevancy
Most rookie big men don’t prosper until almost second half of the season, because of the more physical game that is the NBA, also they usually didn’t develop a jumper yet. There are a lot of success stories but it’s not the norm, unless you get a freak like Staudamire.
He was never going to come in the first place
Did anyone seriously think that Lebron James was comming to the Nets? I never did believe that the second I heard it. He would probably just end up staying on the Cavs. Don’t give me that cap space or max contract thing, because I do feel that NBA players have the tendency to place themselves up for auction for the highest bidder. He is not going anywhere anytime soon, and that’s despite the fact that he and Jay-Z are friends. I can still remember how Dennis Rodman and George Karl were great friends but Rodman never came to the Sonics (now Thunder) despite that friendship. In reality, it’s what team offers them more, not who they are friends with.
I don't think Lebron will come here
and I don’t really care one way or another. I kind of wish he’d sign a ten year extension with the Cavs just so people will stfu up about him.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
LeBron conversations...
always remnd me of the play “waiting for godot.”
“Is he coming? do YOU have a clue?” “Alas no… but… do YOU have a clue?”
astride of grave and a difficult birth
sounds like the 2009-2010 season doesn’t it.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I have a question for Knick fans or those that know how "The Knicks think"?
Would the Knicks consider taking 2 players from Bosh/Amare/Boozer for the 5/4 positions, if they realize that Joe Johnson is likely to remain in Atlanta?
And if the answer is Yes, would Bosh/Amare/Boozer prefer it that way? Who would be the Knicks PG, to get them the ball.
Seems that the Knicks, with all their cap space, don’t have nearly enough.
Of course this is relevant to Nets dealings with DLee/RGay.
It would seem that Donnie Walsh has to get 2 stars just to give the fans hope, and let them worry about whether it was a good decision next January.
the knicks got sergio rodriguez in one of those deals didn't they?
I guess he’d be their pg.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
I appreciate your answers about PG..
but my question is still whether the Knicks would accept TWO players from Bosh, Amare and Boozer, since they really don’t have any Bigs, once they renounce David Lee? This assumes that Joe Johnson stays in Atlanta, and of course DWade and LeBron re-sign with their teams.
My feeling is that would the Best the Knicks should expect to do, and even then they will have tough competition from Miami and Chicago.
EVERYTHING that happens this summer is based on what LeBron does, and as much as I hate to admit it, I really do believe that the Knicks are the only team that he’d leave Cleveland for. Of course, I really do expect him to stay, even if he just signs a short-term deal.
NONE of the PFs are worth the money LeBron/Wade are, but a couple are going to be overpaid. It happens every year. I just hope we’re not the team that does it. I’d rather see us going into next season with our draft selections + a couple of role playing bigs like Scola and Camby as opposed to paying big money to Bosh (soft) Lee (no defense) Boozer (injury prone) Amar’e (malcontent) Rudy Gay (one-dimensional) etc. etc.
I’m not worried about the draft. I love Wall but I wouldn’t be mad with us getting Turner or Cousins. I just don’t want to see us turn into the Knicks and start giving parking lot attendants max deals.
Draft Cousins...
And our PF/Backup Center position is filled.
All we need is a SF. Maybe T-Will, Maybe Gay…
Draft Wall and we still need a PF and SF.
When Amare, Boozer and Lee are in their thirties and getting way overpaid Cousins will be 25.
We can draft a backup PG and SF after drafting Cousins.
Lets build our team to last…
I can see Wall and all his amazing talent and Nets still losing...
I thought Harris and C.Lee were part of our rebuilding plans. I guess we will continue tearing down and rebuilding until they move back to NJ in 2025. Watching the Nets make the safe or wrong moves for too long now. Ever since they got into the NBA… But hey, it’s just a game…
If Cousins is such a headcase and crazy maniac...
Why is John Wall always hanging out with him, off the court. In fact a month ago or so during an interview, Wall tried to fix Cousins up with a date with one the UK women players. I want my PF to be mean and nasty. Cousins is smarter then you think and the team that draft’s him might strike the mother lode. Wall might become the next Wade, Rose, Paul etc. but Cousins might become the next superstar.
Proky believes in luck and is a gambler by nature.
He knows how fickle faith can be. That’s why I’m confident if he has anything to say about it, Cousins will be our pick. 1,2,3, or 4.
Imagine how much more effective Lopez will be...
Having a real PF playing down low with him. He will have plenty of room to roam and our guards and wingmen can gamble on defense knowing that anybody that gets through has to deal with a beast. And Cousins can play PF, he is not some slow, lumbering giant. Watch some of his games. He is quick and agile and has great skills. Get the right coach and the right cast of players and we should be set for the next ten years. And if it all blows up, hey, what do we got to lose. It’s not like we won anything in the last 35 years. Dare to be different. Dare to be champs…
That was just my opening salvo...
Soon I will send in the shock troops… And then the real battle of our #1 pick will begin…
Allies...
I can only assume these include Cousins agent and whatever team ends up with the third pick in the draft.
Well Jay-Dub, That 3rd pick in the draft might include you...
So I’m including you as one of our allies. Want Cousins phone #?
Welcome aboard…
Well isn't that what sports are all about? Entertainment?
For most ..But not for me… This is serious business…
I feel like Larry King circa 1970's...
Nobody but crazy people listened to his radio show that aired at 12:00 midnight, talking mostly about UFO’s, and know he’s a national institution. Dare to be different…
I deleted a large string of comments in this post,
and I must remind you to be respectful of your fellow commenters.
Comments like “Can you read?” are against site guidelines. Discuss the topic and make your point without attempting to belittle those who disagree with you.
Thanks.
NetsDaily.com
Can you read????
This site would be really interesting if nobody visiting it could read. Can you imagine what the comments would be like??
If stoudemire goes out in the 1st round he is definitely leaving Phx. That would be a total embarrassment.
If Amare can't get Pheonix past the 1st round...
How can this future max player get the Nets or Knicks anywhere? Amare should go to the Lakers, Cleveland, Orlando, Dallas… then he might be effective. LOL
Amare also just got out rebounded by old man Camby… But let’s throw max money at him.. There’s no way his knees are on their way out…
by JohnFromLongIsland on Apr 19, 2010 8:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
seriously
he’s basically had 2 months of so of suddenly playing defense and rebounding out of his mind, which coincidently came after he found out teams weren’t falling over themselves to trade for him at the deadline and everyone wants to give him max money and ignore 3+ years of data.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Amare
Is not worth the max, he doesn’t rebound or defend, something we need badly from the PF spot. Let the Knicks overpay because they are desperate.
"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."
If I had to chose between Amare, Boozer or Lee...
I would chose Cousins, just kidding…
I would take David Lee… I don’t trust Boozer or Amare, especially with max or near max contracts in their pockets. Plus Lee is younger.
Actually, there is EVEN LESS chance LeBron goes to the Knicks than there is of him going to the Nets in 2013, after the team has moved to Brooklyn.
Here’s what we know about LeBron:
- He has ABSOLUTELY NO respect for that Old Man Pringles (D’Antoni)
- He cares about nothing except for winning the championship, and as we all know, DEFENSE = CHAMPIONSHIPS!
- He feels Devin Harris/Courtney Lee/Terrence Williams/Brook Lopez/John Wall or Evan Turner or DeMarcus Cousins >>>>>>>>>>> David Lee(?)/Chris Duhon(?)/Wilson Chandler/Toney Douglas/Danilo Gallinari.
( #1 and #2 are related)
by diehardNFFLbarnone on Apr 19, 2010 10:20 PM EDT reply actions
what?
how do you know this? here’s what we know:
Bosh won’t even consider NJ
NOBODY thinks Lebron will consider NJ
and Wade won’t consider NJ
The Nets were one of the worst teams of all time last year
The Nets don’t have a coach
here's what else we know
there’s 0 reason to think Wade or Lebron will consider the knicks either other than a bunch of fantasies NY reporters have made up because they can’t pull their heads out of their asses long enough to realize the world isn’t falling over itself to come to NY anymore.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Playoffs
Are any of you watching the playoffs? I don’t know if I could stand to watch basketball like that. Its Lebronze and 4 other guys standing around. Terrible basketball. TERRIBLE.
I think I could live with 61 terrible wins
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
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