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Why John Wall is the #1 pick

NetsDaily note: Newark2Brooklyn originally posted this as a FanPost, but in the spirit of encouraging everyone to participate in quality discussion, we've promoted it to the front page.

(Warning: This is way too long. Get a cup of coffee or something if you really want to take it in.)

So I recently joined NetsDaily, mostly because the last forum I was in was just plain awful. In my short time here I've found much better discussion, and as a Nets fan most excellent discussion revolves around our future - because the word "excellent" doesn't really describe anything about the Nets in the present.

As far as the future goes, only two things are for certain: a) the Nets will have a top four pick in the draft this coming summer, and b) a lot of cap space. Everything else is in flux. No one (save Brook Lopez and Mikhail Prokhorov) is untouchable. Because the Nets have the best chance of getting the #1 pick (25% to be exact), one of the most recent discussions that was had is centered around who the Nets should take if they end up getting it. There are two obvious candidates - Kentucky freshman point guard John Wall, or Ohio State junior swingman Evan Turner.

Star-divide

Hartford_v_kentucky_out5hmbid4sl_medium

Evan Turner is an awesome basketball player. John Wall is the #1 pick.

 

This is probably a little premature as a Nets fan - after all, we only have a 25% chance of the first pick - but this analysis could apply to nearly any team who would pick number one. I'm only going over who is the best prospect. That being said, don't get me wrong. Evan Turner is an excellent basketball player and will continue to be at the next level. He's a great rebounder for a swing man, has an excellent midrange and slashing game, is a willing defender, runs the floor like a gazelle, and can carry a team (as proven with Ohio State). He's as close to a future star at the NBA level as you can get. Unless, of course, your name is John Wall. & For the next 2300 words, I'm going to tell you why.

Ten_tournament_championship_game_nptv6i1wlpjl_mediumSec_basketball_tournament_quarterfinals_v1z1wy1m_wcl_medium

The two best prospects in the NCAA. The future of professional basketball.

 

1) John Wall is the single best athletic specimen the league has seen since Dwight Howard or LeBron James. Yes, everyone talks about this. Yes, it's boring and repetitive to mention. There's a reason people mention it. Because it's freaking true. Chad Ford calls him extraterrestrially athletic. Jonathon Givony merely calls it freakish. Whatever you call it, it's there, and barring a catastrophe of Len Bias proportions, it ain't going anywhere. We all thought Derrick Rose was an athletic gift from God, and one year later the basketball deities bless us with someone who arguably blows him out of the water. Evan Turner is a solid athlete - he's got an NBA-ready body, takes extremely long strides and has great size for the SG position - but he's nowhere near the athlete that John Wall is. & in today's continually evolving NBA game, athletic ability means more and more every year.

 

Words can't describe how awesome this dunk was. Hopefully video can. (Or slow-motion video, too.)

No matter how you judge athleticism, Wall isn't just off the charts - he's past the moon. Leaping ability? The guy's listed at 6'4"* and can dunk with two hands off an unguarded step. Lateral quickness? The guy can stay in front of anyone on defense, and even if he gets beat going in one direction is still able to recover and stay in front of his man. Although Kemba Walker actually makes this shot, you see an example of this here. End-to-end speed? There are about a hundred videos on YouTube showcasing that, so I figure one that also shows his change-of-direction speed (and leaping ability, for that matter) would be a better choice - many of you have probably seen this one before. Physical tools? He can finish with either hand, is chiseled, and has arms that stretch further than any point guard in the NCAA. Seriously. He's got to have at least a 6'9" wingspan. Next time you see him play, watch how far his arms extend on defense. Or don't, just look at the picture below. I think it provoked a lot of those early Dwyane Wade (who has a 6'11 wingspan) comparisons, when people were still figuring out whether or not he was a point guard.


I want to say something clever about how long his arms are, but doesn't this just speak for itself?


Luckily, that leads into my second point, which is:

2) John Wall's feel for the point guard position is sublime for someone with his pedigree and ability to score. Let's step back for a second. This is a guy who dominated high school basketball as an individual. He came to Lexington knowing he was likely the #1 pick in the NBA draft on potential unless he snoozed away his entire season. He could have spent most of his time jacking up shots and playing up his star status. Instead, here's a guy who's fourth in the NCAA in assists per 40 (pace adjusted). The guy averages a tick under 13 shots per 40PA - far from chucker level. Unless the game is on the line, you don't see him forcing the issue. When Wall brings the ball up the court, there's no worry about whether or not the point guard's going to go into 1-on-5 mode (unless he's really got a lane, and in that case, who would stop him? Not John Calipari, not his teammates, and definitely not Rider). He's more Rajon Rondo than Allen Iverson. He's shown an ability to be coachable (minor spat with Calipari aside) and understands that working within a team system doesn't confine his talent, it explores it.


Beautiful drive and dish. Just like mom used to make.


Speaking of coachable...

3) John Calipari is known for developing point guards in college that excel in the NBA. Derrick Rose, Tyreke Evans. Calipari is kind of a sleazeball so that's all I'll say before this gets removed from the record books.

4) John Wall's college statistics are excellent for a point guard. One of the major arguments for Evan Turner in the "who should go #1" discussion is that his college stats blow Wall's out of the water - and, to an extent, that's a very valid point. Evan Turner is putting up raw figures that dominate any and all competition in the NCAA. The man is a legitimate triple-double threat every single night - 20 points, nine and a half rebounds and six assists per game are absolutely monstrous numbers. We haven't seen anything like it since Larry Bird. The fact that he only turned it up in the Big Ten Tournament is an excellent indicator as well.

The issue with this argument, however, is that great point guards in the NBA often do not dominate statistically at the NCAA level.  Wing players like Adam Morrison** are a dime a dozen in the pros, yet if you looked solely at his raw statistics at Gonzaga you'd convince yourself that he was the next Bird.*** Empirically, Wall can't compete because the college game doesn't reward great point guards with adequate statistical representation.

For example, let's look  at some great point guards drafted in the last decade and their raw numbers in college.

Chris Paul - 15 ppg, 6.3 apg, 4.5 rpg, 47.2 FG%, 2.5 spg in 33.5 mpg over two basically identical years

Deron Williams - 11 ppg, 5.9 apg, 3.3 rpg, 42.2 FG%, 1.1 spg in 31.7 mpg over one "rookie year" and two years of about 13pts/6ast in 33-34 minutes

Rajon Rondo - 9.6 ppg, 4.2 apg, 4.5 rpg, 49.3 FG%, 2.3 spg in 28.1 mpg over two seasons (little better his second year, although is percentages went down)

Derrick Rose - 14.9 ppg, 4.7 apg, 4.5 rpg, 47.7 FG%, 1.2 spg in 29.2 mpg in one year

Devin Harris - 14.8 ppg, 3.1 apg, 4.1 rpg, 44.7 FG%, 1.7 spg in 35 mpg over two decent years and a breakout junior season

Tyreke Evans - 17.1 ppg, 3.9 apg, 5.4 rpg, 45.5 FG%, 2.1 spg in 29 mpg in one year

And,

John Wall - 16.6 ppg, 6.5 apg, 4.3 rpg, 46.1 FG%, 1.8 spg in 34.8 mpg in one year.

Wall posts the second-highest scoring average, the most assists, near the bottom in rebounds (0.2 behind three guys), and middle-of-the-pack in field goal percentage and steals, while taking on a much higher load minutes-wise and reliance-wise than any other player (although, to be fair, none of these guys had a college big like DeMarcus Cousins to defer to). These numbers aren't contextualized at all, though, so let's look at per-40 pace adjusted stats from each player's freshman year.

It's a little small, so you can click the picture to get the full-sized view. Basically, Wall scores at the third-highest rate (behind Rose and Evans - the other two Calipari products), dishes out the most assists, turns the ball over a lot (turnover numbers basically increase as the years progress), commits the fewest fouls, and otherwise falls in the middle/top half of the pack. Note also that his rebounding totals look much better when contextualized in this manner. While there's more context to be found here - the systems each team ran, for example, are very different outside of the Calipari 3 - it's safe to say that between the change in hand-checking rules, the NBA's defensive three seconds rule, quicker possessions at the NBA level, and much wider spacing, star point guards at the collegiate level find stats much easier to attain in the pros than in the amateurs, and a guy with Wall's combination of smarts and athleticism is the prototypical point guard to dominate because of these changes.

Now, of course, this goes both ways. Mike Conley had somewhat decent stats in college and has hit a wall in the NBA. Raymond Felton similarly looked pretty solid at UNC. This is where you really have to look a little past the numbers; Felton was a short point guard on a stacked college team, Conley wasn't nearly as assertive on either end of the floor & and while impressive athletically didn't have nearly the athletic potential that Wall exhibits on a nightly basis.

 

John_wall_medium

Midair body control. Nobody beats the Wall. (Dick Vitale agrees.)

 

5) John Wall's blend of basketball ability and athletic ability is unmatched at the amateur level.  For me, this really comes down to his ability to absorb contact and finish in traffic. His body control - evidenced by shots such as the one above that reminded Dick why he loves March Madness, and this ridiculous shot against Tennessee - is unbelievable for a point guard. Hell, for any position.

Just as important as anything else, though, is his sublime sense of the moment. We all heard the stories of how he hit clutch shot after clutch shot to start the season, but that underscores his true ability to rise to the occasion. Let me show you an example. The Louisville-Kentucky game - "The Bloodbath" - was a game where tensions ran high throughout. The first substitution happened seven seconds in, when Eric Bledsoe was replaced after arguing an early foul call. There were six fouls and three technicals assessed before there was a single shot attempt by either team. (Seriously.) DeMarcus Cousins was hit in the crotch and retaliated by elbowing the assailant in the face. It was not exactly what you'd call a graceful affair. Both teams wanted to win, and weren't going to stop at anything to do so. With 9 and a half minutes to go in the second half, the score read 42-41 Louisville, and that's when John Wall took over.

He starts off the show with a pump fake, getting his man (Louisville guard Edgar Sosa) off of his feet and flying past him. He drives to the hoop, hangs in midair for a seemingly impossible amount of time, gets off a shot at a ridiculous angle with two help defenders in his face, and somehow banks it in. 43-42 Kentucky. After Sosa turns the ball over on the next play, Wall receives a pass in the corner, evades Jerry Smith playing in the Louisville zone, and pulls up on the run from 17 feet. Swish. 45-42 Kentucky. Wall, feeling the momentum, picks Pedro Silva's pocket on the next defensive play, leading to a near behind-the-back layup from Wall (the one that's become his trademark) stopped only by a hard foul. Wall coolly hits the two free throws, puts Kentucky up 47-42, and Louisville never really threatened again.

 

 

Louisville_v_kentucky_qryizl5ejm1l_medium

"I talked about his poise and his presence, Verne. You're seeing his presence now." - Clark Kellogg

 

When it comes down to it, there aren't any prospects that match Wall's combination of athletic ability, basketball smarts, sense of the moment feel for position, sense of the moment, & potential. Evan Turner comes closest, and he's still more of a question mark. Will he be as effective in a system not built around him? We point to his unbelievable stats (and he deserves credit for them), but he also plays on a team with no real point guard and nobody who can rebound. As the unquestioned alpha dog and a pretty good rebounder/passer already, it's no surprise that he focuses on getting them. Getting 10 rebounds a game as a wing is pretty remarkable - okay, it's flat-out incredible - but had Jared Sullinger (the best rebounder in this year's high school class & a future Buckeye) joined Ohio State this year instead of last year I think you'd see a downtick in those raw numbers.

All in all, I know I'll get some argument because a fair amount of people here love Turner (and even Cousins), regardless of what or how much I write. That being said, I see Turner as a future star in the mold of a lower-middle-class man's Brandon Roy or Scottie Pippen, which is still a great player and worthy of the #2 pick in this draft. But John Wall combines the best aspects of Rajon Rondo with Kevin Johnson and Derrick Rose. He really has no equal. The hype is not undeserved, the praise not unwarranted. He really is just that good.

 

Both sides of the floor with the game on the line.

 

For me, there's really one comparison that lines up cleanly with these two guys. When I was fourteen, there were two players that were being strongly considered for the #1 pick. Both big guys. The first guy was a high school kid, lauded as a hyperactive, jump-out-of-the-arena freak. He was described as "athletic and fluid" by NBA.com. Chad Ford of ESPN.com said he had "the most upside in the draft" and a "great attitude." The other player, a three-year collegiate, had just come off a monster season - 16 points on 60% shooting on one of the best teams in the NCAA, 11 boards a game, a "physical specimen" and "aggressive rebounder" who played intelligent basketball with a tough work ethic.

I had convinced myself that the collegiate was the definite pick to make. It was obvious to me - you pick the proven beast. So when I found out that the Orlando Magic had selected - you guessed it - Dwight Howard over Emeka Okafor****, I thought the Magic had made the biggest mistake of their young franchise. I reamed it as much as a fourteen-year-old could. My dad got sick of me talking about it, and he's my dad. I even became a Bobcats fan and played as them on NBA Live just to make sure Okafor would always have a higher rating. (It's okay. I've since switched to 2K.)

But, of course, Howard became the all-world player, the top center in the league and the best player on a legitimate championship contender. Okafor, while a serviceable center, has never really capitalized on that talent, becoming a legitimate, consistent double-double threat but never a game-changer like Howard.

So I was wrong.

Very wrong.

 

And I won't be making that mistake again.

 

asterisk (*) notes

*-I wouldn't be surprised if come combine day Wall actually lists an inch or two shorter. Just a hunch, though.

**-I want to make clear that I am in NO WAY SAYING that Turner is going to end up like Adam Morrison. At all. He's got one thousand times the talent that Morrison has ever had. I think he's going to be a legitimately great NBA player. Just that stats at the collegiate level can be easily misinterpreted if not adjusting for context.

***-Unfortunately, so did part-owner, part-pseudo-GM Michael Jordan, and he inexplicably picked Morrison third - the pick MJ himself was selected with 22 years earlier. I was sixteen and I knew this was an awful idea, but once you've drafted Kwame Brown first overall, you're weirdly bulletproof - no bust is gonna top that. Weird thing is, Morrison got a ring earlier in his career than Michael did. You can't make this stuff up.

****-The comparison between Okafor and Turner is seriously weird. Two guys, both juniors in college, both great scorers and rebounders at their position, both winning outstanding player awards in their junior year (Turner for the season, Okafor for the tournament), & both likely #2 picks behind guys whose wingspans, length and upside could put Jay Bilas in an adjective coma. But the crazy part? Both suffered back fractures in their junior years. Yup. Talk about a verifiable WTF. Now don't get me wrong, I'll take any odds (ANY!) that Turner is going to have a more successful career than Okafor, who's been plagued his whole career with bad ankles and good buffets. But it is something to think about.

 

When I kept the links with the pictures, it screwed up the way they looked. Photo & other credits:

Pictures 1-6, 8 thanks to zimbio.com. Absolutely awesome site for basketball photos (and photos in general). Picture 7 thanks to courierpress.com. Picture 9 thanks to ukbigbluenation.com. All collegiate stats from draftexpress.com, the single best NBA draft website on the net.

Comment 211 comments  |  9 recs  | 

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Good read.

" I'm really excited to take the worst team in the league and turn it to be the best in the league." --Mikhail Prokhorov.

by Claud on Apr 15, 2010 9:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Great Read

Well done, N2B. Thanks for all of the effort.

by MyNetsForLife on Apr 15, 2010 10:07 PM EDT reply actions  

I admire your zeal and ability to make your case...

Every time I think of John Wall, I picture Derrick Rose on the Nets with more setup/ leadership instincts. Both are athletic marvels for their size, and both will have long, successful NBA careers. I, too am excited by Wall. If we get the #1, then Harris has to go. Wall could POTENTIALLY back him up for a year to get seasoned in the pros. For those of you who don’t remember, the Nets did the same for Kenny Anderson during his rookie year. Fans would yell from the sidelines to put Kenny in the game. When they finally did, he would electrify the crowd with his amazing ball-handling ability. I’m not saying the Nets would do this, but nothing is out of the question. Now, picture Anderson dribbling down the court with awesome athletic ability and also three inches taller and you have John Wall. I agree he is the best PG prospect to come out in a while, and that include CP3, Deron Williams and Derrick Rose. I just hope his career matches my expectations!

by Morph on Apr 15, 2010 10:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Very nice.

Stats, pictures, video, intelligent opinion. You got it all and even though it is long the way you broke it up made for an excellent pace. You have a future in this kind of stuff. Keep up the good work.

by thepapers on Apr 15, 2010 10:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow

Fantastic article, N2B! I’ve been back and forth between Wall and Turner over the past couple of months, but I think I’m finally sold. The statistical break down of the other point guards was a great point that I haven’t seen in any other Wall-Turner debate. I’m glad you took the time to write this article down, I think it was well worth it!

-GMJ

by GMJigga on Apr 15, 2010 10:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Very Nice

John Wall is definitely the first pick. Evan Turner could be the better NBA player right now, but you won’t be able to say that 3 years from now. And for people worrying about a possible steep learning curve, just look at all the other point guards that have come out recently. The rule changes that give the advantage to fast, strong perimeter players basically destroys a lot of the learning curve a young point guard has to go through. If you’re a physical specimen like Rose or Evans, you can get wherever you want whenever you want, and that makes it easier to learn the game. I expect things to be the same for Wall.

by muwu on Apr 15, 2010 10:48 PM EDT reply actions  

For the most part I agree with this post

but 1. for the 10,000th time Evans isn’t a pg and doesn’t even play pg for the Kings. For two if you’re going to look at Rose and Evans then you have to look at young pgs like Conley and Critteron too.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 15, 2010 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Conley and Crittenton

aren’t in the same physical class as Rose etc. Nor are they in the same mental class as players like Stephen Curry. And Evans should have been a PG, if Sac had elected to keep him there as was the case earlier. His size and strength advantage at that spot is unmatched

by muwu on Apr 15, 2010 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

“The fact that he only turned it up in the Big East Tournament is an excellent indicator as well.”

Turner played in the Big Ten Tournament. That’s my only nitpick.

Turner’s motor and BBIQ are integral to his greatness. They are both off the charts. This can’t be understated.

Also, you wonder how a player like Wall can withstand the rigors of an 82 game NBA season.

by TWilliAM on Apr 15, 2010 10:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Wall has a lot of room to fill out

he’s not skinny like Harris is skinny. He has a frame to put on a lot more weight/muscle without it drastically effecting his athleticism/speed. And I imagine that would go a long way in preventing possible injuries over an 82 game season.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 15, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great write up.

It was very well paced with visual and statistical evidence for every point in the article. I look forward to your next article if you choose to do one.

Sunny days ahead? Probably not.

by Brian. on Apr 15, 2010 10:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Championships

i really liked the post and I agree Wall is amazing but small players do not win championships.
Of the point guards you named only RRondo has won in the Finals and KG was really the key to that.
Shaq
TDuncan
Kobe and Jordan are the exception be cause they both post up more in the playoffs.
Wall would be better than DHarris hands down. But imagine if Detroit drafted Melo in 04?
Detroit would be a conter every year.
What if Turner turns into Melo or Durant?
What if Turner is a giant JKidd and averages a triple double for a season.
Little guards are almost dime a dozen right now. See how NCollison did while CP3 was out? Fast guards rule since the NBA changed the hand check rules.
Small guards also have a durability problem….
What if the Nets pick 4th?
Johnson or Cousins or …….

by DJ HeavyDuty on Apr 15, 2010 11:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Imagine if Detroit drafted

6-4 Dwayne Wade in 04, the only one of the big three from that draft to win a championship, and yes I understand they had Shaq, but we already have our franchise big man in Lopez. We don’t need another one. And I’d put money that Dwayne Wade would improve the average team way more than Cousins would.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 15, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

True that

We already have an all star big man, an arguable top 3 center in the NBA. We won’t die if we just have a productive role player as a big beside him. I’d rather have a dedicated defender/shotblocker/rebounder beside Lopez than another post scorer

by muwu on Apr 15, 2010 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

how many decent teams even have two offense first big men? Nearly every championship team has paired and offensive big men with a defender/shot blocker/rebound. The only teams off the top of my head I can think of that have recently tried combining two offensive big men are Minnesota with Love and Jefferson and the knicks too years ago with Curry and Randolph, and neither worked out particularly well.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 15, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice work

Appreciate the quality discussion.

I am a firm believer that when you pick at the top of the draft (say top 10) you have to take the best talent available. The pick is an asset and even if the player does not fit your team you can use the pick/player to trade for what you want. This is why even though we need forwards, if we pick #1 or #2 we take Wall or Turner.

I think they are very close. I think the combine and private workouts could make an impact (is Turner more athletic than some think – is Wall as bad a shooter as some think). I think who we select as the coach could make an impact. I think views on potential free agent signings (2010 and 2011) could make an impact. I even think potential trades involve the pick or existing NETS could make an impact. If we get the #1 pick this could be an honest debate up until draft day.

I do not buy your college stats comparison completely (does not change the fact that Wall is a super talent who had a great year at UK). There are to many variables in college team quality, coaching styles and the same impact on the NBA teams that drafted the players you use to compare. Rondo on this UK team could have been a much better college player. Rondo on the NETS likley would have been a much worse pro.

Glad I do not have to make the call. Of course hire me as GM, pay me a few million and year and I am happy to give it a go.

But since you put so much time into writing, you get a free pick…..Turner……unless….

by Jay-dub on Apr 15, 2010 11:16 PM EDT reply actions  

WOW

Great read my man. You summed up perfectly why we need to pray the ping pong balls go our way and we draft Wall.

I live out of NJ now but if we have Wall on the team next year I will pay for NBA league Pass to watch this team.

by jcapriolo on Apr 15, 2010 11:24 PM EDT reply actions  

The college stats issue

Here’s a good article on that: http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1004

“A more likely explanation in my opinion is that by using nearly a decade’s worth of NCAA-to-NBA translations, the translation system doesn’t realize how much more capable young point guards are of playing well in the modern NBA. Because the league has put such a premium on quickness and ability to create off the dribble since the rules reinterpretations prior to the 2004-05 season, the painful learning curve rookie point guards once had to go through may no longer exist.”

by muwu on Apr 15, 2010 11:27 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm glad he brought up Cousins

PER for big men in college can be INCREDIBLY misleading, just for example people keep bringing up Cousins insane rebounding rates as reasons his lack of athleticism won’t hurt him on the boards in the NBA, but a big men we all know and love (Lopez) has rebounding rates even more insane, and he’s struggled to be a consistent 10+ rebounder per game in the NBA too.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 15, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Off-topic, but rebound rates in college are misleading if you're looking at mid-majors

But players in power conferences against top competition have more understandable rebound rates than others. Cousins is an example of that. Lopez’s rates were good but not great, Cousins’s are great…

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 15, 2010 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

is the SEC a power conference?

in basketball they’re fairly forgettable, I understand they’re one of the big 6 conferences but I’m not sure I’d say the talent level is on part with the East/Pac-10/ACC or even the Big 10. Are there really that many quality front courts in the SEC to make Cousins numbers that impressive?

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 15, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

well I'd assume they'd have guys who can rebound

I’m asking is their talent level as a whole comparable high to automatically lump them in with other conferences.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not particularly.

The SEC had a down year overall and Cousins did get muscled around a bit in the SEC tournament Finals against Miss. St.

Sunny days ahead? Probably not.

by Brian. on Apr 16, 2010 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

In short, yes

But this post is about Wall and this is a totally separate discussion.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 16, 2010 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh and

for when was the last time a smaller guard led a team to the championship, Billups.

by jcapriolo on Apr 15, 2010 11:30 PM EDT reply actions  

or Tony Parker

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not to mention

WE ALREADY HAVE A FRANCHISE BIG MAN. I don’t understand why people keep bringing this up like we have some massive front court hole and are desperate for low post scoring. We have the big man who’s going to lead us to a championship, now we just need an elite guard/forward to go with him. And wall isn’t small at all for a point guard, he has a frame to put on a lot of muscle, Billups also isn’t small for a pg by any means.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Next season

NJNets

John Wall
Chris Douglas-Roberts
Terrence Williams
Amare Stoudemire
Brook Lopez

by Jarkid Shen on Apr 15, 2010 11:31 PM EDT reply actions  

CDR ain't staying and Amare is too injury prone and plays NO defense

Here’s my starting 5 for next season:

John Wall/ Devin Harris
Courtney Lee
Terrence Williams
David Lee
Brook Lopez

This is a young, talented starting 5 that could go on a tear for years to come. All 5 can run the floor, all 5 are skilled offensively, all 5 have the ability to play solid defense and all are capable passers (which is most important, IMO). The missing link is the coach that brings them all together out on the floor. This starting 5 could conceivably be together for a 10 year run in the East. This lineup is our best shot at getting good quick, and won’t break the bank. We may not have to overpay for a big-time FA, another key to our long-term fiscal health.

by Morph on Apr 16, 2010 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

What are you talking about?

CDR won’t be a starter, but he should stay.

Amare is a FAR superior player to David Lee.

by Andres B on Apr 16, 2010 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

You have your opinion; I have mine

We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

by Morph on Apr 16, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Amare is definitely far superior superior

but being locked into for near max money for him for the 4+ years would be a GOD AWFUL idea. There’s just way too much risk involved.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

The salient point is injuries

I’m not saying Amare is less of a player than Lee. I’m saying I’m concerned about how much longer his bionic knees will holdout. And he plays no defense.

by Morph on Apr 16, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

He plays more defense than Lee, Lee plays none. He can block shots something Lee can't do, as well as the intimidation factor Amare brings.

I think Amare knees will be alright for the next few years, he seems to work hard on his body during the off season and developed the jumper.

by Atronic on Apr 16, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

It would be 5 years for ALL the top free agents. There is no getting around the 5 years. Demand is greater than Supply

Maybe someone like Scola could be talked into settling for 4 years.

Interestingly, Boozer’s value may go down soon, as he is injured and may not want to hurt his next contract by playing 100% in the playoffs.
The REAL Carlos Boozer may show up this weekend!!

by jerry25 on Apr 16, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah but locked into Boozer/Amare for 5 years, especially at near max money

is WAY more risky than being locked into Scola/Lee for 4-5 years for well less than max money.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I’m not a big fan of pursuing either Boozer or Amar’e. These two guys have histories of leg issues. That’s very troubling for any player but especially so for big men. Sure they’re talented but, will they hold up when guys start getting closer to their primes? My guess would be no.

by head_hunter on Apr 16, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Prime" is a subjective concept

Some players reach their peak early in their careers (Vince Carter) others late (Hedo Turkoglu). For all we know Lee could very likely be in his peak now. I don’t really see him improving on his numbers now.

by muwu on Apr 16, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lee will not get better defensively tho.

I like Lee I think he would fit well here, for the right price I would take Amare offers little more than Lee, but if can’t than I would take Lee.

by Atronic on Apr 16, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was talking about Brook, Lee, TWill and our first round picks reaching their prime when Boozer/Amare would be on their decline.

by head_hunter on Apr 16, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

If John Wall doesnt work out

then we can always use him for marketing…because you know he’s going to be in commercials and stuff.

by Andy. on Apr 15, 2010 11:53 PM EDT reply actions  

LeBron's about to sign him to his marketing company

Hmm could we get some quid pro quo if we get him?

by muwu on Apr 15, 2010 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's why LeBron likes Wall, even though Turner is better.

We shouldn’t be influenced by Marketing.
Look at Yormarket with Yi.

In the end, Marketing will only get you so far in the NBA.
You have to produce. LeBron came through.

by jerry25 on Apr 16, 2010 6:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great post but

John Wall is athletic but not that athletic, the most athletic player since LeBron and Howard, I don’t think so. He won’t even be the most athletic guy on the team thats T-Will. I see Turner more in the mold of Grant Hill, or Penny Hardaway he is a big strong body, even Devin Harris said that when they played in the Summer, who has point guard skills and a ridiculously high B-Ball IQ. I just don’t see John Wall as that much of a lock, the post made interesting points, but I don’t think he’s more athletic than Derrick Rose you saw the dunk on the kid from Phoenix.

by Atronic on Apr 16, 2010 12:04 AM EDT reply actions  

Hmm I think he can be most athletic in terms of point guards

I definitely think he can be as athletic as Rose or possibly even moreso, we’ll learn more once workouts begin, then we can compare what they can do

by muwu on Apr 16, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I don't know just something feels off, about John Wall I want to love him

I remember watching Chris Paul and Rose dominate in the end, just didn’t see Wall do that, maybe he becomes the next big thing I don’t know. But just what I saw from him didn’t blow me out the water. Scouts and NBA people said the he’s better suited for the NBA because it’s more wide open but we’ll see. It’s a good problem to have for us, hopefully we get 1 or 2

by Atronic on Apr 16, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Turner's skills can't be connected to Morrison

Turner played with no one brought the ball up played every minute, did everything and has the handle of Carmelo Anthony. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZVpqYQIPcU

by Atronic on Apr 16, 2010 12:08 AM EDT reply actions  

He is right on one thing.

If Nets get #1 pick they will take Wall,
then quickly trade him to the #2 team and get a bonus in return.

I’ll wait for the Evan Turner promo before commenting further.

This whole Ad above is very good, but proves my point. Wall is all highlights-hype.
Even former #1 pick Jay Williams says this.
Turner carried a team by himself.
Wall had a future NBA team to surround him and he still could finish his job.

Case proven.
Case closed.

by jerry25 on Apr 16, 2010 12:25 AM EDT reply actions  

No one should say that Turner doesn't have exceptional ability

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO10V5Gk0Q8&NR=1

“That’s why he is the college player of the year”

“Like Superman”

All Turner needs is to get people to watch “HIS” best plays, just like the media has been doing for Wall all year.

by jerry25 on Apr 16, 2010 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

i see a good player who does everything well with nothing standing out...

at the nba level, his opponents will be faster, stronger, smarter…john wall’s speed though is unmatched even in the nba…and his court vision is equal to chris paul/deron williams…
evan turner can even be classified as rod thorn’s dreaded “tweener” (thorn almost never drafts a tweener)

by jirohkanzaki on Apr 16, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry...Turner can't be classified a tweener...

In fact, he is tall for his position(s) and Thorn likes those players…

by jirohkanzaki on Apr 16, 2010 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

No

I agree that Turner is a better player for the college game and that Wall is better for the NBA game.

Please read the article, most of the things you’re saying are things I went over already.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 16, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nearly everyone believes Turner is a better college player. That's why he overwhelmingly won college player of the year.

The rest is speculation.
But for what its worth, it looked like Turner improved more from beginning to end of his junior year, than Wall improved during his Freshman year.

So I don’t understand how people could project that Wall would overtake Turner in the pros.

by jerry25 on Apr 16, 2010 5:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you are going to base the argument upon in season improvement, shouldn’t you compare how Wall played this year with how Turner played his own freshman season? Wall was asked to lead a team with national championship aspirations, and was a top 5 team all year, and he was coming straight out of high school. Turner had a much smaller role.

by Chris2 on Apr 16, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Correction
and he still couldn’t finish his job.

by jerry25 on Apr 16, 2010 5:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

All of this will be solved if the Nets fall to #2...

Let the team picking first make the mistake…LOL

Wall or Turner, even if the 1st team make the right choice we’ll pick the next best one.

by jirohkanzaki on Apr 16, 2010 12:40 AM EDT reply actions  

I still can't help but think

that Wall won’t succeed the way Rose has. Although he’s around the same size/weight as Rose, Rose seems to be a lot stronger and harder to knock off course. Wall seems kinda small and speedy, like Brandon Jennings. He can’t really shoot (according to some scouting reports I’ve read) consistently, which will hurt him also. Rose is already a top 20 player in the league, and I just can’t see Wall getting there as fast as Rose did. I’ll vehemently refute your claim that Wall is more athletic that Rose, but perhaps Wall’s passing ability will help him excel.

(I use Rose in the comparison because, like you mentioned, he’s the one Wall is likened to most)

by Stacey_Is_King on Apr 16, 2010 12:44 AM EDT reply actions  

That's what I always say...

We already have a recent prototype of John Wall’s game which has been successful in the NBA and that is Derrick Rose’s game…it is difficult to project Even Turner’s game translating into the NBA…

by jirohkanzaki on Apr 16, 2010 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

brandon roy would probably be a prototype for Turner.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wall is faster end-to-end, has a quicker first step, similar hops, and is far more aggressive than Rose was at Memphis

As for strength, Wall is surprisingly strong, which is why I wrote about his ability to finish in traffic – which is pretty outstanding for a PG.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 16, 2010 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

and as far as strength like i've said like 10 times

he has plenty of room to fill out, it’s not like his frame is anywhere near maxed out.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

As I recall, Wall's worst games were against NBA-like quick point guards.

Someone who has the time could do a study of Wall’s worst games, and it was probably against the better NBA-type PG’s.
In the NBA, he’ll be seeing that every night.

Wall is built more like Devin Harris than a shorter but stronger Derrick Rose.
Harris became prone to injuries because of his build and getting hit/fouled everytime he drives to the basket.
Even NI predicts the same future for Wall.

And Harris is still better than Wall at this moment, so it would be risky to trade Harris before Wall would start to achieve his potential.

by jerry25 on Apr 16, 2010 6:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wall didn't have enough "worst games" to really say anything

He had something like three truly bad games all season. Wall is also the same height as Rose and has been knocked around by bigger stronger guys all season with no issues.

As for being red-flagged for injuries, fracturing your back in college is a pretty bad indicator for the future. I hate to say it, but it’s true. I hope Turner never hurts his back again, but that’s one thing that you need to keep in mind while drafting.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 16, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was saying that as well...

about Turner…it might be a pre-cursor to chronic back problems…

by jirohkanzaki on Apr 16, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think a fully healed fracture at his age leads to chronic back problems.

Having spinal disk problems leads to back problems, but even then is unusual for an Athlete before age 35.

Aren’t they allowed to have a physical before the draft? or at least examine any recent Lumbar MRI film?

by jerry25 on Apr 16, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's a positive

but not nearly enough of a positive to off-set the fact he had the injury to begin with.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought he had a pretty bad fall. Did any expert say at the time that he had brittle bones?

I remember when Jefferson fractured his wrist, people used it against him.

But he never had a re-occurrence, nor should he have. It was just an accident that had no more chance of repeating than the first time it happened.

by jerry25 on Apr 16, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Someone posted this but it would be interesting if we land number #1

How much would the team who has #2 pay for the pick, (If they have point needs) considering the hype for Wall. I mean keeping Wall wouldn’t be a problem even tho I prefer Turner but never know more assets you know.

by Atronic on Apr 16, 2010 12:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Wall, Turner or even Cousins can be great players...

as long as we don’t fall to #4 I’ll be happy…getting at least the #2 is already lucky…

by jirohkanzaki on Apr 16, 2010 1:05 AM EDT reply actions  

Agreed

I will be happy as long as we get one of those 3. Obviously, Wall and Turner are the 2 clear-cut studs in this draft, but DC would make an awesome consolation prize.

by Andres B on Apr 16, 2010 5:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

is he so great?

why playing with 5 number 1 picks in the nba,and he and cousons being 1st team all america, could he not win a ring in a watered down college game? just playing devils advocate,,.How about twill at the point turner at the 2,, gay for haris trade , at the 3,
boozer or amere at the 4, lopez at the 5,,,,
yi backing up the 2 fowards and center spot,,,lee off the bench
then some shooters marow, that is a dynasty. and twill and turner would stuff the stat sheets sharing the ball handling duties, can you imagine how many rebounds twill would get plauing point gaurds the guy is 6/6 and against fowards gets 10 rebounds every so often

by Jack net fanatic on Apr 16, 2010 1:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Because in college, lose one and you're out...

Even in the NBA upsets did abound when there were best of 5 playoff games,,,Kentucky would have won if those were decided by a best-of-7 series

by jirohkanzaki on Apr 16, 2010 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

But KY had a bunch of close games, even down the stretch.

And Wall had a bunch of games where he didn’t do much (although they could usually find a couple of highlights for the media).

by jerry25 on Apr 16, 2010 5:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are you just saying things?

You already have an answer to that when you said Wall is playing with 5 #1 picks in the NBA…Wall doesn’t have to do much in fact, that is a testament to his unselfishness.

Turner though is asked to be a lot of things and yes, he did deliver.

The questions now are:
1. What if Wall was asked to do more?
2. And what if Turner isn’t “the man” as he won’t be as a rook in the pros?

by jirohkanzaki on Apr 16, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Turner plays better off the ball than wall and is a better shooter.

Is there that much of a difference between John Wall and Devin Harris, as opposed to keeping Harris and bringing in Turner to play SG or SF I don’t think so. There both fast and average shooters.

by Atronic on Apr 16, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shooters?

you have cdr dharis and twill inthe back court none can hit a 3 or a 18 footer, lopez will never develope or the gaurds becuase the other team has to put 3 guys in the paint ifwe get wall great,do you think wall in year 1 or 2 will exceed haris , who went to a allstar game last year,is a blur 27, and was the pg on a 67 win finals team,HARIS ISNT A franchise player but we won 13 games so with or without wall we need serious upgrades

by Jack net fanatic on Apr 16, 2010 1:12 AM EDT reply actions  

also periods,

they work wonders.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

i would trade wall 4 love and rubio

then i would trade haris for gay, LOVE AND LOPEZ BOTH 21 BOTH HIT 80 PCT FT both have range love is probably the best rebounder per minute in the game, we would be set for 12 yrs up front and he is a great passer, gay 23for haris,,twill 22 shooting gaurd,terific passer rebounder, and rubio 19 at the poijnt,,, lee 23 yi 22 cdr 22 off the bench, and you still aroung 18 mil in cap space FOR lebron ,or multiple players, GAY would be the oldest player at 23 on the team, there are plenty of players to pick from anthony marow, r allan josh howard, camby ect

by Jack net fanatic on Apr 16, 2010 1:18 AM EDT reply actions  

Why would you trade Harris for Gay if Nets could get Gay with a nice front-end loaded offer, without giving up anything?

But that’s another reason not to take Wall over Turner.

Nets would eventually try to trade Harris, but get little in return based on the offers that were documented last year.
Harris is far from his peak value. He would first need to have a coach like his Mentor, Avery Johnson, to resurrect Devin to the defensive player he once was.

Basically, by taking Wall over Turner you would be giving up Harris for little (probably a good backup player – not a starter, and another draft pick) when instead you could draft Wall with the #1 pick and then trade him to the #2 team for their pick and a Bonus and keep Harris as the Nets starting PG (with TWill as backup) under a new defense oriented coach.

It would be Turner + a Bonus from #2 team + keep a resurrected Harris as PG vs. Wall + a good backup from trading Harris.

I like the left half of the above equation better.

by jerry25 on Apr 16, 2010 6:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm, I still can’t read between the lines? Does he like Wall or not?

Great article, great read…a well argued and convincing thesis. Unfortunately, after wetting my appetite so much, its more than likely we will not get him. Anyone know how to rig the lottery?

by Mr Flea on Apr 16, 2010 3:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Nice job Newark2Brooklyn...

For the time and effort it took to put that piece together.

by M I K E on Apr 16, 2010 5:12 AM EDT reply actions  

Great Work!

I was sold on evan turner until i realized that what we see now is probably as good as he will get. He will develop a better jumper eventually but I see him as another iggy,roy,granger type. Wall may become the next isiah, I would love to be able to take that chance with the #1 pick.

by power_njerz on Apr 16, 2010 8:06 AM EDT reply actions  

Ew, you compared him to Rajon Rondo??

by mb4th on Apr 16, 2010 8:29 AM EDT reply actions  

Close but no cigar.

Wall will be great. I doubt at the level of Kobe or Wade but with Paul and Williams or Rose. In any case it’s not what he is to me its what we need, a defensive big men, and he doesn’t supply the need. We could sign a FA but there are no great defensive big men other than LeBron and you can’t even consider a FA until after the draft therefore, unless we trade the pick, trade Harris with a package or make another move before the draft to acquire what we need imo going small in the draft without a starting defensive PF on the team at that time is wrong. BTW for those who consider Lopez a franchise center on a team that won 12 games this year I would reconsider my assessment. Either he is overrated, underdeveloped or in great need of help (most likely) and I would think twice about drafting Wall while your big man has a problem. Writing how great Wall is is like writing how bad the Nets are. It’s obvious but nice article.

by msm2 on Apr 16, 2010 9:17 AM EDT reply actions  

and who available for the #1 pick would fit that bill

are you saying you want us to skip Turner and Wall to reach for Favors?

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Here is my take

Here is a quick positive and negatives about both. Keep in mind, I will be happy with both. I am very excited. I will NOT be happy with Walls dufus teammate of a center, or anyone else after 2 for that matter.

Wall – Positives:
- he is young. I have more hope for a freshman then a junior. If Turner is so good why is he still in school?
- he is athletic (although I feel like this is a moot point, seeing as how he is just a PG.-see Steve Nash)
- he can pass.

Wall – Negatives:
- he is young. Its a gamble.
- he is just a point guard. I made this argument a while ago, that no “true” PG has won anything. That’s if they are amazing, like CP3, Derron, Nash, and Kidd. I am not a fan of Tyreke or Rose, but I like Tyreke way more then Rose. Wall is more like Rose.
- We need a scorer, and Wall is, and SHOULD be a pass first. When the game is on the line, I would rather have a Durant or a Kobe, not a Kidd or CP3. That negates the athletic part also. If Wall is the most athletic since Dwight, then would you not take Durant? If you can score you can score.

Turner – Positives:
- The guy can play, and he is NOT a point guard. I am looking for someone to close out games, and I think he can do it more effectively then Wall. He has the potential to be a real closer.
- He plays all positions, pass, shoot, rebound. This is very similar to the stud names you hear winning championships. Kobe, Wade, Jordan. They all had the ability to do it all. (Im not saying he is them so cool your jets. but I feel like those are the comparisons to make…shoot, pass, rebound).

Turner – Negatives:
- He is old. Why is he still in college. I see potential, but “studs” come out to the pros at the first chance they are given.
- He like Wall is a gamble. That’s what the draft is about though!

If we don’t get 1 or 2. I will literally cry.

by Tim823 on Apr 16, 2010 11:13 AM EDT reply actions  

so you finally posted this....

saw why it took you so long. Ya swayed me a bit, but jeez, did your boss know you were working on this instead of working on the spreadsheets?

by HabPSU on Apr 16, 2010 11:26 AM EDT reply actions  

P.S.

Just so you know, just kidding, my degree is right on track.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 16, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wall's our guy at #1 unless...

Say we get the #1 and Minnesota gets #2. Would you trade Wall for Turner and the rights to Rubio? I love Wall and think he’s going to be a superstar, but I that would be a tough offer to refuse. Whaddaya think, Wall fans?

by jabez on Apr 16, 2010 12:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Eh....

Don’t see it happening.
1) Minnesota would never do the deal, Kahn is the kind of GM who would prefer Turner to Wall/they’ve already got a PG flux and Turner fits their needs better.
2) Personally I think Rubio has been overrated and I don’t want to wait beyond 2010 to construct a team with the lockout looming. Even if he does come out this year (which is unlikely), that’s just another contract tying up our cap space.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 16, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right but....

with Minnesota you never know. Kahn loves point guards and has done some, er, counter-intuitive moves in the draft. They also need to trade either Jefferson (no thanks) or Love (intriguing). Flynn, Love and Turner for Wall? If we aren’t getting a top FA, I’d rather see us stockpile good young players.

by jabez on Apr 16, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

are we sure they would?

they have foye, livingston (how is he only 24), and they’re still stuck with Arenas contract. After trading Haywood and Butler they may be looking for a C or sf/sg.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Huh?

They have Foye and Livingston so they dont need Wall?! Why are we even talking about Wall then if we have Devin, who is immensely better then both of those!

by Tim823 on Apr 16, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because we are Yormarks puppets...

Yormark, ESPN, and Co. are the puppet masters. They pull our strings and we dance.

by M I K E on Apr 16, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Foye and Livingston are MUCH younger

and much cheaper and arguably with higher upside.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just giving props to Newark2Brooklyn...

for an interesting and informative piece that stimulated a lot of intelligent discussion…sure beats “Yi sucks!”

by jirohkanzaki on Apr 16, 2010 1:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Good job, sport.

Seems like you read a lot of ESPN.com because you got their style nailed.

I love all the spirited conversation here although I think passing on Wall is a joke. What has been most convincing for me is Magic comparing Wall to himself- as the kind of player that comes along once every 20 years and reinvents the sport. Now, Johnson is prone to gushing but I believe him when he sees something truly special and goes out on a limb to declare it.

As for Love, forget it. The guy is too slow to play sufficient defense at the 4. We either go after Amare in free agency or stand pat for another year and collect more assets to get a good reboundin/defensive power forward. Thankfully Thorn is the one who will be making the decisions and not us in this forum… In Rod we trust!

by BrooklynNets on Apr 16, 2010 1:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Agree but

If we get stuck with Evan Turner a backcourt of TWill and Evan Turner has a lot to offer for a long time.

by mt57 on Apr 16, 2010 2:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Yi still sucks!

“and who available for the #1 pick would fit that bill are you saying you want us to skip Turner and Wall to reach for Favors? by Gina”

It’s hard say say now. I’ll have a better idea after the draft lottery. I will say that filling our need at PF with a top draft pick as opposed to a trade or FA is the best low risk/high reward possibility. I’m also willing to say that if the worst case senario happens whereby we don’t sign a FA or trade for a PF we’re more likely to remain in the lottery next year with Wall or Tuner than with Favors or Cousins not to imply I would draft either of those two bigs.

by msm2 on Apr 16, 2010 3:32 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree it's a better low risk/high reward possibility

except I’d also say Favors and Cousins are much much more high risk than Wall Turner, so you’re just trading risk in one area to risk in another, and really since the #1 pick is guarenteed 7 million we’re not saving that much money depending on who in FA we might target.

Plus we’ll also have Dallas’s pick and the possibility to buy a lower pick or trade a future pick to move up if their a big man falls. I’d say between the two choices of drafting Favors/Cousins over Wall/Turner and drafting Wall/Turner and then 1. trading up for a big man 2. just drafting a big man with our second pick 3. signing a cheap big man to fill in until we draft one next year the latter is much less high risk, just because Wall/Turner have a bigger chance of returning on their investment. Not to mention drafting one of them would open up the assets we have to move since we’d have a surplus of swingmen and give us more options in the trade market to fill holes.

And really I don’t see anything wrong with remaining in the lottery another year, it worked for Portland and Seattle. In fact I’d much prefer that to wasting all our cap room this off-season locking ourselves into mediocrity and being in that awful 40-46 win zone, we’re you’re not really good enough to contend in the post season or bad enough to get a chance to draft a significant player.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Totally agree

I don’t think any player other than Lebron can make us a contender right away. Nobody in the draft and no other FA can do it. My son thinks Amare and Turner could do it but I wouldn’t draft small without a legit PF on the team at the time of the draft. Assuming Thorn runs the show next year, I wonder what his mindset will be about the future. Imo he needs to produce a playoff team at a minimum to establish his credibility with Proky while keeping his options open to get a dominate player that could make us a title contender in the future. I think we have to remain in position to land that type of player while we try to improve and that could take a while. My guess is Thorn will pull off a trade to make us a title contender.

by msm2 on Apr 16, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just don't see why we need a "legit"

power forward by the draft, we have one legit big man, we can go with some cheaper short-term options in FA or attempt to trade for one after the draft or wait until the 2011 draft to address the problem. I don’t think it makes sense to pass over Wall/Turner to reach to fill a need with riskier prospects when there’s so many other possible options for filling it.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

T-Will and Turner backcourt equals matchup problems and lots of rebounds

Imagine a lineup of maybe T-will,Turner, and Rudy Gay for the right price. Long athletic scorers who can all rebound, with maybe David Lee, or stoudamire for the right price. We save money for next year and get Carmelo, or wait for Lebron if he does sign a 2 year extension in Cleveland. I honestly think the ball in T-wills hands will be better than in Wall’s , you can have Turner bring the ball up and set up the offense as well, everybody can pretty much switch off on D, because there similar in height 6’6-6’8, helping us defend the pick and roll and 3, sort of like Atlanta. I think this could be a smart way to go.

by Atronic on Apr 16, 2010 5:02 PM EDT reply actions  

i'd prefer to imagine it without rudy gay

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can't have a backcourt of TWill and Turner

Neither is a PG. Both are playmaking wings, NOT PGs. Both are excellent complements to a scoring PG like Harris.

by Andres B on Apr 17, 2010 6:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Harris.....

…..could actually shoot a lick, we’d be pretty damn set on the wings. But since he can’t, if we do draft Turner, we need someone that can hit shots and attempt to play defense.

"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."

by MrDollarBills on Apr 17, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does everyone team need actually need a true pg

if you have two great play making/ball handling/passing guys in the back court what’s the problem?

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 17, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

T-Will is never on the court without another PG because he can't handle running it himself

If he did, he’d average five turnovers per game. He still presses too hard on too many occasions and is best only in limited situations at PG because of that.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 17, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's also a rookie

and we’re not saying hed be running it by himself, him and Turner would be running it. And Turner has plenty of experience running an offense.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 17, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Turner's played pg for the Buckeyes

I’m saying they probably haven’t left him on the court without another pg because he’s a rookie, and one who never played point in college. Turner has played point and run the buckeyes offense in college, often in fact, so I don’t really see how him and T-will back there would be different from him and rookie wall, who has even less experience running an offense than Turner, back there.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 18, 2010 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wall has less experience as a PG than Turner? You've lost me (and likely everyone else)

If anything, Turner played the “0-guard” position that’s been carved out for guys like Tyreke Evans (who you yourself said was “not a point guard”) – guys who dominate the ball but still put up good numbers because an entire offense runs through them.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 18, 2010 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I said Evans doesn't play pg for the Kings

which he doesn’t Urido or whatever his name is does. Evan Turner has absolutely played point guard for the buckeyes almost this entire year. Him being moved to the point guard position was a big story.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 18, 2010 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Evan Turner was that entire team, he played everything from 1-4

John Wall plays PG exclusively and ran a top-4 team in the NCAA all year. To say that Wall has less experience than Turner at playing the point is just ludicrous.

Udrih handles the ball much less and averages less assists than Evans per game. They kind of share the duties but it’s clear that Evans is the go-to guy.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 18, 2010 3:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

What troubles me most about Wall and Turner...

Is that they are not great shooters. Guards that can’t shoot are a liability, which we see first hand with Harris and T-Will.

Was Devin Harris the new NBA PG prototype? Ultra fast and flashy guards who can do everything but shoot and pass. I.E. Brandon Jenning -.370 FG%

Who will be the next John Wall coming out of college next year? Every year we seem to get one of these types.

Yes I know Wall and Turner can develop into good shooters in time. Yawn…

The plan here seems to draft Wall or Turner then buy ourself a PF FA .

Good luck with that team.

by M I K E on Apr 16, 2010 5:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Just because a player’s shot is not money in college does not mean that their jumper cannot be developed or improved upon, see Kidd, Jason or Jordan, Michael. Even Grant Hill is knocking down threes at a solid clip and his range was barely at the top of the key when he first came out of Duke

granted, i’d hope that whoever we pick(and T-Will) develops their jumper faster than those men, but you get the point.

"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."

by MrDollarBills on Apr 16, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

well they didn't really develop jumpers until they had no choice

Grant Hill because of the injuries robbing him of his athleticism, Kidd because of his knees/age doing basically the same thing and Jordan because of his age. Which is kind of similar to what seems to be said about Turner, that he’s not a bad shooter so much as he’s just never had to work on his shooting because it’s so easy for him to score driving there’s no reason for him too at this point. I imagine if he had to, and really I imagine if most great athletes suddenly had to, they could improve their shots.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 16, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

You don't have to be a great athlete to shoot well...

Is this basketball or the decathlon?

What ever happened to the fundamentals? Slowly eroded over time for the new age of B-Ball. Style over substance.

by M I K E on Apr 16, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Solid point

Defenders won’t be able to lay a hand on Turner and with his ability to pass off of the dribble he will be a deadly weapon. I can’t fathom passing on this kid unless the Nets scouting staff sees something that they don’t like(assuming we get the #1 or 2) or Wall just blows Thorn’s mind.

"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."

by MrDollarBills on Apr 16, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder if Rod Thorn will be making that descision...

Proky’s basketball “experts” might have some say.

“With the #1 pick the Nets select… Donatas Motiejunas from Lithuanian”

Minutes later NetsDaily site would crash, bringing down the whole SBNation complex along with it. Maybe the whole internet itself… LOL

by M I K E on Apr 16, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great readq

But I’m still leaning towards the Turner/Williams perimeter duo with either a shooter at the SF or guard spot to balance them out.

Wall is an insane talent but you don’t just dismiss guys like Turner. He reminds me of this generation’s Anfernee Hardaway/Grant Hill, a dude that can score, pass, rebound, AND defend, has speed, and can take over a game. We NEED someone like that.

Athleticism can only take you so far. BBIQ and having an overall mastery of the game are far more important and that is the direction that Evan Turner is headed in. When he develops his NBA 3 point shot, he is going to be an absolute star barring injury. I go with the swing man.

"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."

by MrDollarBills on Apr 16, 2010 6:01 PM EDT reply actions  

If it's between Wall and Turner...

I agree, take Turner. Are we building a cohesive team or are we building the next superstar?

I can see Yormark and company choosing the later. Player over team.

by M I K E on Apr 16, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly my point

People are caught up in the hype. I have no problems taking Wall but we want to construct a winning team, not a damned circus.

I have no problems if we land either of these kids, but I’m not interested in manufactured hype dictating what is best for the Nets in this draft.

"No one stands on the top of the world. Not you, not me, not even gods. But the unbearable vacancy of the throne in the sky is over. From now on...I will be sitting on it."

by MrDollarBills on Apr 16, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not dismissing Turner, merely explaining how good Wall is, circus be damned

Wall’s blend of athletic ability AND BBIQ is outstanding, which I detailed in the article – please read it more closely. Thanks.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 18, 2010 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

In best case scenario Wall reaches Isaiah Thomas' level but Turner is beyond Brandon Roy's level.

Thomas was probably among the top 5-15 players in the NBA during most of his career, but only won 2 championships with Detroit.

A player who would be beyond Brandon Roy’s level would also be among the top 5-15 players in the NBA.

Therefore, in the best case scenario, they are still about even, but the likelyhood of Turner being better than Roy is more likely, IMO.

by jerry25 on Apr 18, 2010 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wall's best case is a 6'4 version of Isaiah Thomas, one of the top 25-30 players in NBA history?

Who led two teams to NBA titles as the best player? Who would utilize his quickness to absolutely DESTROY the NBA with its new interpretation of the rules that favor quick guards?

Evan Turner’s ceiling according to you is a better version of Brandon Roy, who (don’t get me wrong, I LOVE as a player, but) has never reached the second round and has (uh oh) a chronic injury history that dates back to his college days?

Sounds like you just made my case for me.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 18, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Please quote where I said "better than Isaiah"

But regardless, Magic said he sees a lot of himself in Wall. Are you implying that Isaiah Thomas was better than Magic?

You’ve made a lot of the same points that I addressed in the article, which I’ve asked you multiple times to read. Please do so. Thanks.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 18, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

we have a big man

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 19, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

and just big men don't win championships

or Howard would have 20. It’s the team, and coaching and scouting etc. how many championships has Shaq won without Kobe/Wade, or without Jackson or Riley, to of the greatest coaches of all time. This team’s problem isn’t a lack of a big man, we have Lopez, this teams probably is the team isn’t properly constructed around him and we don’t have a real coach or any type of scouting department.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 19, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

While it’s been necessary for the past 20-30 years to have a dominant post presence to win a title (or Michael Jordan, either one), the game is changing. It’s evolving. You can only rely on old tricks to win a new game for so long.

Man, this offseason is going to be interesting.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 19, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

What we need more than John Wall

is an identity. Once you lead the head, the body will follow.

by HabPSU on Apr 19, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wall vs Turner

I just want we pick 1st or 2nd…..Wall is the real deal, but Turner would fill better our whole at SF, so I just pray to don’t fall to 3rd or 4th in the lottery!

by Heavinsent on Apr 17, 2010 10:23 AM EDT reply actions  

Fanning the flames with...

season averages:

2009-2010

John Wall: 16.6ppg, 6.5apg, 4.3rpg

Evan Turner: 20.3ppg, 5.9apg, 9.2rpg

You do the math.

by HabPSU on Apr 19, 2010 5:53 PM EDT reply actions  

By the way... Great fanpost Newark2Brooklyn...

Even though I don’t agree with your conclusion.

by M I K E on Apr 19, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey... Is that anyway to talk to a fellow Nets fan?

Your young, that’s your fault… You will get over it… All glory is fleeting… Ask your most popular freind in H.S…

by M I K E on Apr 19, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

@ M I K E

you an idiot. Idk if you watch basketball @ all, but we dont need cousins, we need john wall alot more.

by Jay2fly on Apr 20, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

We could definitely use Cousins

But we could use Wall & Turner a lot more. If we fall to #3 and can’t realistically trade up, I’d be fine with Cousins.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 20, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

we could use cousins

by the same logic we could use anyone who is capable of putting the ball in the basket. But in terms of trying to build a sound balance team Cousins skill set doesn’t make a lot of sense to add given that it doesn’t really compliment Lopez.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 20, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

He does, and this is a pretty common misconception

People have a very warped view of Cousins’s skillset, he’s actually exactly the kind of big I’d want next to Lopez, who is still stunted defensively and doesn’t rebound nearly as well as a guy his size should.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 20, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cousins is fairly stunted defensively as well

especially against more athletic 4’s. I really don’t see how he compliments Lopez at all. We’ll just have two unathletic offensive first big men.

And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.

by Gina on Apr 20, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cousins is fine defensively and more athletic than people think

He was relegated to a rather rudimentary role on KY (big guy that overpowers everybody else) because the team was entirely shooters. He can handle the ball quite well and is good for a big man at running the floor. As far as athleticism goes, he’s no Favors but I think most people will be pretty surprised at what he can show once he gets to the NBA and has more freedom to operate.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 20, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm and idiot...

Coming from you that’s a compliment…. Thank you … Very Much…

Punk…

by M I K E on Apr 20, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like father....

like son? I read your post N2B, it’s very well written, but hearing what talking heads say vs what’s actually produced on the court may not be the best way at gauging talent. Also, what does n/m mean, nevermind?

by HabPSU on Apr 20, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

n/m = no message

What does “like father, like son” mean?

2 main things:
1) stats are not fact without context, and
2) the opinions that I state are backed up with evidence, usually in the form of video example. Much of the contention that occurred in these comments are just people saying “Evan Turner!” or trying to make a point that I already covered without expanding their disagreement.

My point about raw production is made in the article, if you did in fact read it you would have seen it and at least gone further than just writing down the stats again.

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 20, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

went way further

you are right. My only defense from what i’ve seen out of Turner and Wall is that Turner is NBA ready now, i just think Wall will get there, but not in the turn around time the Nets are shoving down our throats. I just like Turner’s overall game better…and that is an opinion.

by HabPSU on Apr 20, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand your point, but my point is

That Wall is also NBA-ready, Turner has a great game and I think something getting lost in this thread is that if the Nets end up getting Turner I’ll be similarly very happy, because he’s going to be a star as well. Just that I have a firm belief, both from watching a LOT of OSU and KY games, and from dissecting their production, that Wall will be a better NBA player both in the short and long-term.
(Although I wouldn’t be surprised if Turner, or even Cousins, win ROY.)

by Newark2Brooklyn on Apr 20, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

its a post

riddled with opinion, but stats are fact.

by HabPSU on Apr 20, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Stats are only good if you know how to use them

College stats, freshman year.
John Wall: 16.6ppg, 6.5apg, 4.3rpg
Evan Turner: 8.5ppg, 4.0apg, 4.4rpg

I mean, really, could a grown-up basketball fan actually think that the junior year of one player should be compared to the freshman year of another? I suppose your next argument will be that while Turner was putting up unimpressive numbers as a freshman, Wall wasn’t putting up any at all at the college level.

by calling all toasters on Apr 22, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

So stupid...

This is what I want to know…how can you possibly say that cousins is gonna be the number one overall pick??? thats just stupid….

by Jay2fly on Apr 20, 2010 12:53 PM EDT reply actions  

To me, it is Wall, Turner, Cousins. We would all be let down if we drop to the 4th spot! UGH! I look at Wall as a more athletic and offensive gifted Jason Kidd. To me he can be the leader and face of our organization for years to come.

LETS GO NETS!

by JustinNJ on Apr 22, 2010 12:28 AM EDT reply actions  

I'd be OK with the fourth spot

…as long as #3 doesn’t pick Favors. If we get Cousins, we will have to trade him.

by calling all toasters on Apr 22, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

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