Nets and the rest of the league
by muwu on Dec 16, 2010 7:29 AM EST
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PrintIt's early in the season, but it's interesting nonetheless to see where some of the Nets players are compared to other guys in the league
Kris Humphries is currently the 4th best rebounder in the NBA in terms of rebounding rate. He grabs 21% of all available rebounds. That's better than Dwight Howard (20.7), Blake Griffin (19.3), or Kevin Garnett (18.9).
Humphries is 6th in terms of Defensive Rebound Rate, grabbing 30% of all available defensive rebounds. That's just under Dwight Howard (30.6) and better than Tim Duncan (25.9) and Joakim Noah (23.2). The two rookies have almost identical DRR's with Damion James grabbing 22.5% and Favors grabbing 22.3% (Demarcus Cousins? 22.2%). That's just under Luis Scola (22.6), and better than Roy Hibbert (21.4) or Pau Gasol (20.7).
Devin Harris is 32nd in Assist Rate with 28.47% of his possessions ending in an assist. That's not as bad as it sounds considering it's not far from Deron Williams' 30.58, John Wall's 30.65, or Raymond Felton's 30.81. That's also better than Tony Parker (28.22), Russell Westbrook (25.5), and Chauncey Billups (25.43).
Harris is also sporting a PER of 20.68, which is right around borderline allstar territory. That's just a shade under Carmelo Anthony (21.09), and better than Tony Parker (20.37) and Raymond Felton (19.84).
If we're looking at Hoopdata's Alternate Player Efficiency Rating (which adjusts for team pace and league average) though, Harris jumps to 22.78. That's better than Carmelo Anthony (22.18), and just below Pau Gasol (23.45) and Derrick Rose (23.84).
Terrence Williams was 14th in the NBA in Turnover Rate, with 18.74% of his possessions ending in a turnover. You don't want to know who his peers were, trust me.
Derrick Favors is 15th in the NBA in Offensive Rebound Rate, followed closely by Kris Humphries at 18th. Favors grabs 12.7% of all available offensive rebounds while Humphries grabs 12.3%. Favors has exactly the same ORR as Joakim Noah, and his ORR is better than Blake Griffin (12.4) and David Lee (11.8). Humphries has the same ORR as Shaquille O'Neal and Kwame Brown.
Favors however is currently sporting the 2nd worst assist to turnover ratio in the league, with 23 total turnovers as compared to 3 assists.
Brook Lopez is currently the 16th most blocked player in the NBA on a per game basis, getting blocked 1.12 times a game. Others that might be of interest? Carmelo Anthony leads the league with 1.86 (not a new trend) while Demarcus Cousins is at 1.14.
Lopez also has the 6th most field goal attempts per game from 10-15 feet. The bad part? He's only hitting 32.2% of his shots from there. He also has the 18th most FG attempts per game from 16-23 feet. He's hitting only 34% of his shots from there.
However, he does have the 19th highest amount of And1's per game, at 0.6. Carmelo Anthony? 0.68.
Johan Petro has the 5th lowest amount of free throws per field goal attempt with 0.07 free throw attempts per field goal attempt (4 free throw attempts for 59 field goal attempts). Terrence Williams has the 12 lowest, with 0.14 free throw attempts per field goal attempt (10 free throw attempts for 73 field goal attempts).
The Nets as a team allow 105.2 points per 100 possessions. That's 18th in the league. The Knicks? 106.
However, the Nets have only been able to score 99.4 points per 100 possessions. That's 28th in the league. The Knicks score 109.5, 2nd in the league.
Our opponents have an effective field goal % (FG% adjusted for threes) of only 49.22%, that's 13th in the league. But we only shoot 46.79% ourselves, that's 27th.
As a team, we also force the fewest turnovers in the league, with our opponents only turning it over in 11.6% of possessions.
We also have the worst FG% at the rim, only converting 55.2% of attempts at the rim. Boston, the best in the league converts 70.8% of their attempts at the rim.
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So what is meaningful?
These are everything they do one the court, put on paper. There is nothing up there that wasn’t a result of what was on the court.
Some people find value in knowledge. Not for everyone apparently
There is a difference between
“don’t tell everything”
and,
“are meaningless”
by ________key on Dec 16, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i dont like those per stats and stuff like that
i look at fg, pts , reb, blocks, shooting percentages
Ignoring efficiency stats in favor of counting stats is a terrible way to judge players
What the player does in the minutes he’s actually on the floor is something that’s far more useful to look at than simply how much of everything he actually does. It lets us see who would likely be the ideal players to maximize minutes.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 16, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
fg, pts, reb, blocks, shooting percentages are basic stats that don't tell the whole story, just like what u just said...
that is why statisticians come up with more complex analyses/stats which you dismissed for the simpler ones you just mentioned…
by jirohkanzaki on Dec 16, 2010 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
They do track amount of charges drawn
One of the reasons Bogut was so good defensively last year was that he wasn’t only 2nd in the league in blocks, but also in charges drawn
That's just downright stupid
So on that basis you still probably think that Monta Ellis is a good player, right?
by BrooklynNets on Dec 17, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
There is a very complicated stat that only the expert stat guys know
It called the team’s “record”: 6-19
As someone once said, “You are what your record says you are.” Nobody ever said, “You are what your rebounding rate says you are,” and there is a reason for that. I say this as someone who feels all stats are relevant.
Wins and championships are a terrible way to judge an individual player
Those things are the combined result of 12 players and a coaching staff. You can judge a single piece of the roster by looking at the combined effort of an entire team.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 16, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Then we have a hell of a lot of great players on this team!
And an amazing coach!
What is wrong with this picture?
The fact that we have a losing record isn't the result of any one player in particular
We have several that could play significant roles in championship level teams. The combined product is the issue, and is the reason judging a player like Brook Lopez or Devin Harris by the w/l record of this poorly assembled roster is a bad idea. Steve Kerr won a ton of titles. That doesn’t make Steve Kerr one of the best of all time. John Stockton never won a title. He was still one of the best players in the history of the league.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 16, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm.
1. Very Good Players whose combined product is awful.
2. A very good coach whose JOB it is to combine players together.
So the fault is NOT the players. And NOT the coach. Its the “roster”?
I never argued that we have a roster full of very good players, or that Avery is a very good coach.
Muwu is assessing individual performances in this post, and looking at what individuals are doing well. My argument is that wins don’t tell us anything about individual performances, just the combined result of 12 individuals and a coach. We’re starting two guys every night who shouldn’t be NBA starters, and while Hump may be starter material, he’s a very one dimensional player. Hump, Morrow, and whomever is our SF on any given night would all be bench parts on a good team (worst case 1 of the three is starting). No coach or system can take this roster and turn it into a playoff team, espescially when most of them had never played together before this season. That doesn’t by any means indicate that we don’t have any players playing well.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 16, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
Muwu is assessing individual performances in this post, and looking at what individuals are doing well. My argument is that wins don’t tell us anything about individual performances
It is quite unlikely that Devin Harris would have a 20.68 PER on a balanced, winning team (his early success with Dallas not-withstanding). It is precisely because the roster is full of mediocre to bad players, and because the team is a losing team that he is able to have a bloated PER fueled by a usage of 25.93 and a coach that just lets him dominate the ball. If he replaced Rose or Williams he would not be putting up the same numbers.
The point about the stat of the team’s “record” is that sometimes its very easy to put up good numbers in a bad situation. It been compared to stealing during a riot. If you are going to post on how great this individual stat is, you have to also include the circumstance.
Those are all very good and relevant points
If that was the point your initial comment was trying to make, it’s the first time you’ve expanded on a very vague comment.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 16, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t get it.
A bunch of people were saying the Amare was only a by-product of Steve Nash’s greatness. Now they invent new reasons why Amare isn’t wonderful.
Amare's just good point blank period.
Marbury, Nash, Felton or whoever the guy’s an All Star.
Travis Outlaw fan club member with Damion James gettin dirty in the rear view mirror.
even better with Farmar or Devin
Travis Outlaw fan club member with Damion James gettin dirty in the rear view mirror.
wasn't wishing for Amare on this team
tho that would be nice…
Travis Outlaw fan club member with Damion James gettin dirty in the rear view mirror.
maybe that was the problem Rod was still GM...
Don’t think Amare would have chosen the Nets anyway.
Travis Outlaw fan club member with Damion James gettin dirty in the rear view mirror.
maybe if we drafted wes johnson
we would of needed a pf
I liked Wes Johnson too but wouldn't have picked him over Favors or Cousins.
You get a chance to draft a talented big you have to do it.
Travis Outlaw fan club member with Damion James gettin dirty in the rear view mirror.
Expect a loss hope for a win
remember how many wes johnson supporters there wree
favors has more trade value and the fact that pf is very important position
bigs always have more value even if they don't work out someone will trade for them
If you strike out on a wing player you could be up ship’s creek.
Travis Outlaw fan club member with Damion James gettin dirty in the rear view mirror.
Expect a loss hope for a win
thorn even mentioned one of the reasons he picked favors
because there was more interest in favors and cousins cause they were bigs
You can't evaluate individual players based upon wins.
If you did there would be no way to distinguish between Lebron and say Udonis Haslem.
by BrooklynNets on Dec 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
When he has a team similar to the one he has in Dallas, then we can say he isn’t. Who on this team is starting over anyone he had in Dallas?
Official Member of the 'Devin Must Go!' Fan Club
by CyberRambro on Dec 16, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah blowing a 2-0 lead in the finals and being exposed against Pat Riley showed how great a coach he is. Or getting eliminated in the first round by the 8th seed. You’re right, he was a great coach in Dallas, that’s why they fired him and that’s why nobody hired him after that until this stupid owner we have thought he could walk on water.
Signing Outlaw and playing Graham/Ross real minutes are big red flags.
I know coaches fall in love with crappy players that have no offensive ability but play mediocre defense and limit “mistakes”, but this is a rebulding team. Can you find somebody young with some upside in the D-League that could actually have a future? Uzoh looks pretty good. Can you find somebody who can defend the SG/SF position that is under 30? Bad teams have an advantage in that they can give young players a chance. Why waste that advantage by giving minutes to crappy veterans who have no chance at providing value now or in the future?
Official Member of The Ancient Mystic Society of No Melo
who do u want to see get more minutes
im sure king is checking d league for talent
yeah but how come don nelson couldnt lead that same dallas team anywhere
when avery got there, they played defense for first time, so u have to give him credit for that,
they never got to finals until avery took over
the same Don Nelson
who HUMILIATED him in the 2007 playoffs by eliminating AJ’s #1 seeded Mavs in the first round?
That was a matchup nightmare
And it is ridiculous to blame that on Avery. People will complain about anything on this blog.
by BrooklynNets on Dec 17, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
If there's one nugget of analysis you can make from the info above, it's that we reallyyyy need a scorer
We’re not a bad defensive team. We’re middle of the pack pretty much. But we’re one of the absolute worst offensive teams in the league
Yeah. This is a problem.
I would like to get someone like JRich or Prince. They aren’t great scorers, but they can help and are expiring contracts.
Official Member of The Ancient Mystic Society of No Melo
So now people are Avery bashing?
Seriously? this needs to end. I guess Mike D’antoni was a horrible coach when he first started coaching the knicj. the man has two coach of the year awards and a hell of a resume. Avery Johnson is in the same boat. Once the nets give him a real team were going to see what happens. RIght now it’s unfair to say “Avery was a good coach in dallas but not new jersey”, HE DIDN’T CHANGE ANYTHING UP. It’s simply the team he’s coaching not his abilities as a head coach.
Welcome to Nets City
by Jay2fly on Dec 17, 2010 10:41 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
avery proved he can coach, he got a dallas team that played no defense and got them to play defense
he got a dallas team that never made it to finals get there
If you look at the facts of the matter, it really wasn’t the case.
In Nelson’s last year they were 9th in the league in D. In Avery’s first year they were 11th, then 5th, then 9th.
by ________key on Dec 18, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
In Nelson's last year they were ranked 9th in D. What can I say, facts are facts.
They really never were a great defensive team under Avery either.
(You don’t measure D by “points”, you measure it in relation of points to possessions).
All I know is that while Dallas’s defense could be said to have improved (some), the idea that Avery is a defensive guru is completely incorrect. The Nets don’t even have an average NBA defense right now, and a terrible offense. Is it all the players?
Maybe. But Avery also seems to not be able to get the most out of the players he has. Dallas’s NBA run was primarily an OFFENSIVE run, they were #1 in offense for more than one year, driven by a very special MVP offensive player.
sorry, #1 in Offense one year, #2 in another. What Avery basically did was SLOW DOWN the Mavs (they were in the bottom of the league in pace under him, while under Nelson they were near the top), and shored up their defensive effort. But they certainly were not a “defensive” team in the Championship sense.
Okay. There is a difference between “the defense improved” and “Avery is a great defensive coach” (or something like that). You have to keep in mind who was before Avery, possibly the most offensive minded coach in the history of the league. Its like saying that the defense improved after Paul Westhead left.
What Avery did was slow the whole game down. Statistically the defense improved moderately, but to the players a slower game with defensive effort must have felt like a big change from Nelson.
Now look what Avery has done with the Nets:
They are 28th in pace (just like with Dallas).
18th in Defense (not even average)
27th in Offense.
There is defensive effort, but what is missing from the magic formula is the GREAT (and I do mean GREAT) offensive player. Avery is not going to turn this team into a defensive juggernaut, like the Pistons or some such. That isn’t his way. He wants a slowed down, defensive effort, but offensive efficient and dominant team. Instead of Dirk you have a high dribbling PG who like to shoot.
And he seems to have taken Lopez and turned him into a very poor man’s Dirk.
Clearly better. The question is: Can Avery’s offensive philosophy function w/o a great offensive player? Harris simply is not a great offensive player, and the Nets are not likely to get one soon.
with this current roster, no
we either have to land melo in a trade, trade for a scorer, or draft a sf scorer
Avery as coach
Doc Rivers was a genius in Orlando when he took a bunch of nobodies to within a game of the playoffs. Then, he was a bum when his Celtic team won fewer than 20 games. When Ainge got the Big Three and Rivers was able to mold them into a championship team, he was a genius again.
Sam Mitchell was regarded as a poor x’s and o’s guys but he had a team with good chemistry and veteran leadership and he won the Division and Coach of the Year. What was more important? Then, to make Bosh happy, the Raptors fired him. They got worse.
Avery Johnson holds the NBA record for coaching the most 10+ game winning streaks in the NBA…three. He got hammered for not adjusting against the Warriors, then was fired after not getting to the second round the next season. Rick Carlisle hasn’t done anything with the Mavs other than get to the second round. Yet Carlisle gets a pass.
It’s mainly about the horses…and chemistry, even enforced chemistry.
Avery gets a lot of crap, but he gets no credit for developing Favors or Humphries. They just developed themselves. Favors is more advanced than anyone thought! Why is that? Does it have anything to do with coaching? Everyone before the draft thought he was a two year project. How about Kris Humphries. Did he just suddenly discover he was good? Rather giving an assist to Kim Kardashian, why not give one to Avery and his staff.
It’s a work in progress, just as the 1972-73 Sixers were.
people need to quit avery bashing, its year 1 with 11 new players and coaches
the talent level on this roster is very thin, we are lucky to have 7 wins with this roster
give avery some credit, he wanted favors and so did i
he could of taken the headcase cousins which many people here wanted but he made a nice decision bringing in favors or he could of taken wes johnson, averaging only 9 ppg in 28 minutes with twolves
um he had no choice.
this guy was the third best on board. no question
Official Member of the "Do Not Trade Derrick Favors" Movement
its look like we got a great pick if wall has injuries throughout his career
3rd pick was blessing in disguise!
muwu i give you credit
these stats are important. it is all info that avery and king are looking at on a daily basis. the problem is there isnt much we can do about it unless we make deals. that is also why sasha and murphy are getting more minutes. those guys for their careers are high PER guys when they get minutes.
I am just curious to see how we can be with a good scorer like melo. we have the defense to be great with an all start player. i would say if we got melo tomorrow, we would be a 40 win team.
also think of the wonders it would do for brook. one stat you mentioned was brook being blocked a lot. if melo is demaning double teams, brook will get blocked so much less. as much as I am for keeping favors, this team needs a star. bottom line.
Official Member of the "Do Not Trade Derrick Favors" Movement
all of those stats above show that.
also I am reading that orlando is in the market for a backup center. lets trade petro and a pick for brandon bass. he is awesome
Official Member of the "Do Not Trade Derrick Favors" Movement
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